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Movement Conservatives vs. The Pragmatists: The Battle is Joined
I could have just as easily titled this piece “Ideologues vs. The Realists” or some other descriptive caption for what boils down to a debate now fully underway among conservatives about the best way back to power.
Are the ideologues in the movement correct? Is a lack of “passion” regarding opposition to the left, as well as a less than 100%, strict adherence to their idea of conservative “principles” responsible for the right’s slaughter at the polls in 2006 and 2008?
Or are the pragmatists correct that the demand for “purity” by the ideologues coupled with the prominence of a conspiracy mongering, angry, paranoid base has connected conservatism to an unsavory, and unelectable politics?
At stake, a battle for the soul of conservatism in America and perhaps even the preservation of republican virtues given the left’s ascendancy and their first real opportunity in 40 years to “remake” America in ways that are an anathema to the tenets of modern conservative thought.
In the midst of this fight, a book by Sam Tanenhaus called The Death of Conservatism has been published which has already added fuel to the fire. Tanenhaus’s thesis is that movement conservatism has undermined the Burkean roots of conservative philosophy and that rather than trying to preserve and “conserve” institutions, movement-cons, who he terms “revanchists,” seek to destroy that which has been carefully built up over centuries.
The book is based on a shorter essay Tanenhaus published in The New Republic (no longer available) that I wrote about in depth here. I found that the essay reflected some of my own beliefs about where conservatism had gone off the rails, but was seriously flawed in its analysis of what Tanenhaus believed were “excesses” of the movement.
In reviewing the book, Garry Wills pointed to the classic tension between Burkeans and the movement personified by one of the most intellectually productive relationships in American history; the friendship and mutual admiration society that existed between Whittaker Chambers and William Buckley:
Tanenhaus is a deep student of modern conservatives. He wrote a biography of Whittaker Chambers, a self-professed Beaconsfieldian (Disraeli was the Earl of Beaconsfield), and he has been working for some time on a biography of William F. Buckley Jr. This short book is a kind of bridge between his two great projects, and it fits his revanchist–Burkean paradigm. Chambers and Buckley, though friends, began at opposite ends of the “conservative” spectrum. Buckley, who admired Chambers’s witness against communism, tried with all his lures and charms to recruit him as an editor of National Review when it began in 1955. But Chambers thought Senator Joseph McCarthy, whom the magazine championed, would doom Republicans. Besides, he was loyal to his ally in the Hiss case, Richard Nixon, and to Nixon’s meal ticket Dwight Eisenhower, while the magazine opposed them both as impure compromisers. (In 1956, only one National Review editor, James Burnham, endorsed Eisenhower for reelection.)
But Buckley finally wore Chambers down—in 1957, with great misgivings, Chambers joined the magazine. Murray Kempton wrote that Chambers finally went to work for a boss he could respect—which was not saying too much, since “Chambers’s former employers happened to be Colonel Bykov of the Soviet Secret Police, the late Henry Luce, and John F.X. McGohey, ‘then United States Attorney’ for the Southern District of New York.”[2] Chambers soon had to withdraw from the magazine for health reasons, but he and Buckley stayed in constant communication, Chambers advising, Buckley deferential. Tanenhaus makes the case that Chambers finally converted Buckley from a revanchist to a Burkean. Kempton, who studied both men closely, doubts that Chambers’s advice ever really took: “Buckley worshiped and did not listen: the Chambers of his vision is a saint whose icon stands in a Church where his message is never read.”
So close, yet so far apart. What we should take away from that extraordinary exchange of ideas between two brilliant men is that it was done amicably, with great respect for each other, and the debate was carried out with the recognition that both were working toward a common goal.
I don’t see that being possible today. With the absolute refusal of the ideologues to abandon their purge of who they consider less than ideologically pure conservatives, and with the pragmatists fighting what amounts to a rear guard action to marginalize the crazies who are, if not embraced then certainly tolerated by the revanchists, there is no “common purpose” that could lead to any amicability or respect.
Indeed, the revanchists look with askance upon most attempts to criticize conservatism at all, believing that “intellectual elites” are simply playing into the hands of the enemy by taking fellow conservatives to task for their idiocy, or paranoia. Relatedly, any criticism of conservatism coming from the left is automatically dismissed - usually without even reading it - because that would be allowing your enemy to define you.
As for the former, the idea that honest criticism is rejected outright because we’re at war with the left reveals a sneering anti-intellectualism among the revanchists that flies in the face of conservatism’s most cherished and important virtue; a duty to the truth above and beyond loyalty to ideology.
And while I sympathize and agree to a certain extent about not allowing your political foe to totally define your philosophy, that shouldn’t preclude anyone from exposing themselves to ideas with which you may disagree or close one’s mind to looking at the world from a different angle.
Tanehaus is a man of the left (former editor of the Times Book Review section) but he has also immersed himself in the history and personalities of modern conservatism more than most. He is a sincere critic of the right, a thoughtful man who wants to engage in serious discussions about the issues he raises. And while there is precious little empiricism on which you can hang your hat in his writings, some of his analysis will ring true with students of history who have given some thought to what ails the right today.
When Tanenhaus points to the very un-Burkean beliefs of many movement-cons, he is questioning how these revanchists can square their conservatism with the more traditional school of thought represented by Buckley, Hayek, Kirk, Arnold, and others who believed that preserving society’s institutions was the right’s highest calling. A reverence for our past has morphed into a psuedo-reformist mantra that seeks to destroy rather than build upon, tear down instead of conserve. Hence, liberals should not be defeated, they must be annihilated, along with the Great Society, the New Deal, and other “socialist” ideas. Supporting anything less calls into question one’s “true conservative” credentials.
The recent efforts by Jon Henke and Patrick Ruffini to counter these destructive beliefs are instructive. Henke’s call for advertisers and the Republican party to boycott World Net Daily for their enthusiastic coverage and endorsement of the Birther nonsense (among other idiocies) and Ruffini’s defense of Jon, along with a general criticism of the revanchists is both trenchant and on point:
As a fiscal and social conservative, I happen to think Jon is completely in the right here, both substantively and strategically. Don’t raise the canard that we ought to be attacking Democrats first. Conservatives are entirely within their rights to have public debates over who will publicly represent them, and who will be allowed to affiliate with the conservative movement.
The Birthers are the latest in a long line of paranoid conspiracy believers of the left and right who happen to attach themselves to notions that simply are not true. Descended from the 9/11 Truthers, the LaRouchies, the North American Union buffs, and way back when, the John Birch Society, the Birthers are hardly a new breed in American politics.
Each and every time they have appeared, mainstream conservatives from William F. Buckley to Ronald Reagan have risen to reject these influences — and I expect that will be the case once again here.
But there is another subtext that makes Jon’s appeal more urgent. As a pretty down-the-line conservative, I don’t believe I am alone in noting with disappointment the trivialization, excessive sloganeering, and pettiness that has overtaken the movement of late. In “The Joe the Plumberization of the GOP,” I argued that conservatives have grown too comfortable with wearing scorn as a badge of honor, content to play sarcastic second fiddle to the dominant culture of academia and Hollywood with second-rate knock-off institutions. A side effect of this has been a tendency to accept conspiracy nuts as a slightly cranky edge case within the broad continuum of conservatism, rather than as a threat to the movement itself.
In addition to “the trivialization, excessive sloganeering, and pettiness” exhibited by those in the movement, one might add the curious and debilitating attitude of equating thoughtfulness with “elitism.”
Stacy McCain, who can be brilliant when the mood strikes him, wrote this about Henke’s and Ruffini’s efforts at marginalizing the crazies:
Grassroots conservative activists are, by their very nature, not engaged in the political process as a career. They tend to be older, well-established in non-political occupations and less concerned about the Big Picture questions than in finding immediate, practical ways to oppose the menace of liberalism. The question one hears from the grassroots is not, “Whither conservatism?” but rather, “What can I do?”
The Tea Party movement — which will host a major rally in Washington next weekend — has given the grassroots something to do, so that joining en masse to voice their opposition to the Obama agenda, they are actively engaged in the political process.
However, grassroots activism has consequences. One of the consequences of a ressurgent conservative grassroots is that their concerns, beliefs and attitudes are sometimes not in sync with the concerns, beliefs and attitudes of smart young Republican activists like Patrick Ruffini.
Stacy, who later goes on to say that the Birthers “are diverting attention from more valid critiques of the Obama administration and its liberal policies. So they should be discouraged or ignored…” fails to see the Birthers as a symptom of a larger problem; movement-cons rejecting criticism - even of Birthers - as “elitist” and ascribing dissent from their closed, ideological worldview as the critic having insufficient attachment to conservative principles.
McCain doesn’t engage on quite that level but doesn’t mince words when it comes to taking down those he believes have “elitist” attitudes toward the movement (”rubes”). And while he makes some valid points about “careerism” and its deleterious impact on what passes for “acceptable discourse,” methinks he paints with too broad a brush at times. The Ruffini-Henke critique is hardly born out of a desire to advance or augment those two gentlemen’s standing with other conservatives or the Republican party but rather - and I think this fairly obvious - the practical, and pragmatic calculation that we can’t get there from here. Changes are in order so that the public face of conservatism has a smile, rather than a snarl, and promoting the idea that one can vigorously oppose Obama without descending into the fever swamps of conspiracy and hate.
The road back to political power and intellectual relevance for the right will not be found in the rantings of Birthers, the false accusations of apostasy directed against conservative critics, a dogmatic and ideological approach to defining principles, nor an unrealistic and unattainable political agenda.
Nor should we count on the self destruction of the opposition which, at this point, seems well underway. What we do when we achieve power is as important as how we get there. For that, Jon Henke, Patrick Ruffinini, and others like them should be heard out and their call for a return to reason heeded.


Comments
In all candor...
While it is a well-organized piece, it has a few problems. For one thing, it is factually-challenged. To paint with such a broad brush, and to coin another label for right-wingers (revanchists) is silly. For another, you rely upon a book by a leftist. No matter how well-intended and sincere his book may be, the simple fact is that we would fully expect him to take the side of center-stripers(my turn to smear with new labels.)
Did we expect he would say that "Gee, the right-wing has a point?"
Please. So once again, to whom do 'center-stripers'(continuing the theme and practice) turn for their validation?
To leftists. Nothing beyond this needs saying.
Pfffff
So you totally reject
the notion that someone who has immersed himself in the history and personalities of conservatism has nothing whatsoever to say that could be valuable - based solely on the idea that he is a liberal?
I aks you sincerely. Isn't that being closeminded and dogmatic?
Is it 'open-minded and thoughtful'?
Is it 'open-minded and thoughtful' to reject what one knows in favor of what somebody else claims? This is the proposition you lay before me. You submit that it is better to accept the premise of a person who is openly opposed to me in order to consider his opposition.
What makes you think I haven't considered his premise, or yours, already?
This tripe, this nonsensical view, that to hold firm to an idea or ideal is 'close-minded' or 'dogmatic' must be defeated. I will be glad to explain to you why, and happily, too, but here's the thing I believe at this point: You are dogmatically opposed to strict adherence to principle as any closeminded leftist is to conservatism. Yours is the absolute bastardization of all reason and thought: The firm commitment to remain uncommited.
In the beginning, you offer that I should consider the point of view of a lefty-statist on the state of center-right polity. Measuring it by his standards, instead of mine, of course he would think the pragmatists superior, since ultimately, they help him advance his agenda too.
Oh sure, he plays a polite game of philosophical patty-cakes with you, but in the end, he's not moving your way; you are moving his. By any strict definition of the term 'compromise', you have gained nothing but politeness from him; he has made ground on you.
This means your 'compromise' has become our 'sell-out.'
The left has more in common with the intractable beliefs of radical Islam than you might be comfortable in admitting. You can win nothing by negotiating with them. There is no middle ground possible between nourishment and poison, but what you propose is that we should all drink a little poison, at each interaction, avoiding one large and lethal dose, but ignoring that the aggregate of repeated small doses will be no less deadly.
I'm sorry, of course, that I and my fellows will have to rescue your behinds with our own, but in this time, and in this place, there can be no room for the surrender, which you call 'compromise.'
M
The problem is definitional
"Pragmatist", "Revanchist," "movement con," "neo-con," Wall Street, Main Street, RINO- everyone seems to define or apply these labels without anyone having first established any sort of consensus as to what they actually mean. Some might want to call Arlen Specter a "pragmatist;" for myself I prefer the term "weasel."
More than anything else what is needed is a definition of "Republican" or "conservative," which I'm afraid we haven't had for a very long time. Kirk gave us one, and Goldwater; Reagan gave us an update of the Goldwater version. Perhaps the last thing we had that even resembled a statement of core principles, "mere conservatism," was the Contract With America.
But that's all gone. This last decade has been horrible not just for the GOPs political fortunes but for its soul, what with the DeLay hog-sloppers and Bush's me-too Great Society Lite.
Again, what should matter is principle, and *not* perceived issues of class. I detect a hint of hauteur (and my very preppy nose his sensitive that way). Should we dismiss, or worse ignore, townhallers, Palin supporters and others who might wear polyester or use the wrong fork? Please. If there is any basic organising principle of conservatism, it its the core inherent wisdom of the people, even if it often can veer off into nuttery.
Limbaugh and Hannity and Beck have audiences because the audiences have very real fears and concerns, even if not in especially coherent form. Not racism or birtherism or even anti-intellectualism; but a very real visceral perception that 'progressives' (or whatever euphemism the Internationale is going by) are working a massive takeover of their lives.
To regard them as dupes to be ignored, or, worse, manipulated, would be very Liberal of us (and *not* in the classical Millsian sense). One principle which I think must be agreed: we are *not* the party of ruling elites.
Why the slander?
Pragmatists have no principles? That's nonsense. You can't tell the difference between "principles" and "ideology" - two totally differnt concepts that have been confused by movement cons.
And I never mentioned the word "compromise" - not once. You confuse pragmatism with "surrender." A pragmatist oppposes Obamacare for rational reasons - not because of "death panels" or because Obama is a socialist/communist., or because Obama wants to become a dictator. Rejecting reason and logic in favor of emotionalism and dogma is what I'm arguing against - not faulty principles.
A couple things, Rick
I have no doubt of your sincerity, but you're simply wrong. As for 'death panels,' they exist already, and I am not particularly an advocate of this argument. That said, if they do exist, is it wrong to say so? Or will you, out of politeness, deny their existence?
I am not confused, not in any way, but you may be, Rick. As I have explained in my own post, if you'd bothered to read it, you'd notice that I've defined what pragmatism is. So there's no further confusion, I'd suggest you take the time to read mine as I have read yours.
Obama and all statists, whether they know it or not, do wish to become dictators, though they'd never admit it, even to themselves. What else can be the meaning of regulating every facet of American life and the market(s)?
Here's the problem, at its ugly-most root: You, who allow Obama to continue to pretend his arguments are not those of a dictator, effectively give him cover, and dis-arm your fellow citizens against him.
One of the other problems with so-called 'pragmatists' is the increasingly apparent unwillingness to touch any tough issues. It is made obvious when one hears a senior shout "No Government healthcare! Leave my medicare alone!"
Conservatives are willing to take the time to explain to that senior citizen why BOTH are bad. The pragmatists instead will happily take these seniors and fold them into the flock in the name of short-run victory. In the end, they're still left with a bunch of people who believe government ought to provide them healthcare, by one mechanism or another.
Mine is the argument that thinking is complicated, and that most Americans of the center and right are well able to engage in it. They don't need leaders, as I've detailed in a separate article I'm sure you also haven't read.
M
Bush expanded government too
Bush expanded government at a rapid rate and where were the cultural cons? They were behind him to the bitter end where as the intellectual elements of the party began throwing him under the bus far sooner.
Do the cultural conservative/reactionaries really have anything to offer? How about some serious policies for balancing the budget, cutting regulation, improving healthcare, and finishing Afghanistan? The cultural cons only care about fighting a mythical culture war that does not exist.
A couple points...
Yes, George Bush also expanded government, particularly in the social realm, specifically in education, and in the creation of a new entitlement program, the Medicare Prescription Drug benefit.
I agree. Those were all bad things. Were those things 'conservative'? Or were they merely done by a guy who claimed to be conservative? There is indeed a culture war, but it is different from how many would define it. It consists of a culture of 'free everything' as if money and healthcare and prescription drugs and education all grow on trees.
That's where the real culture war lies.
M
I'm sorry, but believing
I'm sorry, but believing Obama wants to be a dictator - even though he's never said so and would never "admit it" to himself is kinda, well crazy. What insight has the Lord granted you to peer into the guy's soul and decree that he wants to throw out the constitution and set up a dictatorship?
This is the hazard of being excessively ideological. You can easily convince yourself of the truth of something that any reasonable person would shake their head in wonder at.
My opposition to the president is no less heartfelt and serious than yours. To argue otherwise is absurd and based on nothing more than my being insufficiently enamored of your paranoia about dictators and death panels. You have judged me using an emotional thermomenter for a yardstick rather than the depth and seriousness of my arguments. Not only is it insulting, but ragged thinking as well.
Once again...
You ignore what I have said, in order to besmirch its significance. I did not get some sort of mystical revelation that told me Obama wants to be a dictator. I did not need to conduct a longterm pyschological profile of him to know it, and I didn't claim to have done so.
I asked you directly: "What else could be the meaning of...?"
Since you seemingly did not understand this, let me make it more clear: The evidence that Obama wants to become some sort of dictator lies not in my imagination, nor in some special mystical insight, but in the very facts of his actions and his advocacies. These are unmistakable.
Now you accuse me of paranoia? Because I have evaluated the evidence, and made my own judgments? Sir, for somebody so thoroughly concerned with having been 'insulted' or 'slandered', you certainly wield those weapons well.
I'd suggest you go back and read what I said, and not what you felt about it.
M
The evidence that Obama wants
The evidence that Obama wants to become some sort of dictator lies not in my imagination, nor in some special mystical insight, but in the very facts of his actions and his advocacies. These are unmistakable.
The "facts" of his actions would indicate that he is not a dictator. A dictator would not be using Congress to implement his agenda - and having monumental problems getting it passed.. And since he has never advocated bypassing Congress and using the military to enforce his will, I would put your idea about Obama wanting to be a dictator very much in the realm of "imagination" and add the sobriquet "paranoid" to it.
What you pose is a logical fallacy. Your slippery slope goes right from A to Z with no intervening logical steps that could realistically occur. You assume that Obama's attempt to circumvent Congress would not be met with strenuous opposition. This is the "boiling frog" fallacy where the frog is not aware it is slowly being cooked as the temperature is gradually increased. I daresay there would be enormous opposition on the left, right, and center to Obama trying to tear up the constitution and rule as a dictator. So once again, we are back to your "mystical insight" that grants you the eyes to see what no one except your fellow ideologues and you can glean.
Obama is a far left liberal implenting an agenda that goes back 40 years. It is a big government agenda and as much an anathema to conservatives as anything that has been proposed in my lifetime. But you do a disservice to the truth by crying "wolf" about a coming Obama dictatorship.
Obama is a far left liberal
Honestly, that's as nutty as saying Obama wants to be a dictator. In the real world, Obama is a moderate liberal whose every major policy proposal, so far, has included major conessions to the Republicans. These are not forced upon him--he offers them right up front. It began right after his election when he chose, as his foreign policy team, the woman who had run to the right of him on foreign policy, the foreign policy advisor to the McCain campaign, and George Bush's Defense Secretary (notably, he also avoided appointing liberals to any key posts). It continued with the stupid "stimulus" bill, 43% of which was thrown away, right up front, in wasteful, less stimulative tax-cuts, included in order ot get Republican votes (it managed to draw a grand total of two of them, at a cost of hundreds of billions). It was there in his choice to sit on the Supreme Court--to an already reactionary-to-the-point-of-illness court, he appointed yet another conservative. And it continued into the health care bill, where, in order to curry favor with the right, he set aside single-payer right up front, and opted for yet another industry-friendly plan that preserves an insurance industry that doesn't work, is doomed to eventual collapse, and is bleeding the country dry as it dies. The Obama is not a "far left" anything. He's a Rodney King-ist ("can't we all just get along?"), who foolishly aims for compromise with those who won't even consider compromise, and just ends up shooting himself in the foot.
As for dictators, we just rid ourselves of the closest thing to one the U.S. has ever seen or, hopefully, will ever see in Bush, a lawless right-wing thug who adopted political cleansing of government agencies, read our emails, spied on our phone calls, dug through our financial records, asserted he had the unchallengeable power to kidnap us and throw us in a hole without courts, laywers, any semblance of due process. He held he could try us in secret kangaroo courts with secred evidence and predetermined outcomes, and even murder us in secret, or just leave us down in that deep, dark hole forever. Or ship us to Syria to be tortured. He asserted, in writing, that he didn't feel bound by hundreds of laws passed by our democratically elected representatives in the legitimate government, made official policy of baseless "legal opinions" that asserted, among other things, he could suspend the First Amendment at will. That's what ran the country for 8 years, and there weren't conservative cries of "dictator." Indeed, the conservatives were overwhelmingly in his corner until very nearly the end, building a Stalinist-style cult-of-personalty around him. The damage he caused to our permanent institutions will take decades to reverse, even if the current administration was intent on undoing everything he'd done.
Unfortunately, "liberal" Obama has been reluctant to try to do much of anything to set these things right. Wouldn't want to offend the conservatives.
No retreat
Gee, Rick, you got him there! Why didn't I think of that? Obama has never said he wants to be a dictator, so that settles it!
Come on - there's nothing "crazy" about watching what Obama and his team are doing, and what they say they want to do, and coming to the conclusion that it is dictatorial in nature. Of course they will never say it, because the American people would reject it. That's why liberals have to lie about what they want and what they believe. No Divine discernment is necessary to observe and conclude. It isn't "excessively ideological" to see that Obama has already thrown out the Constitution. Where, prey tell, does the Constitutional authority come from that allows the state to buy banks, insurance companies, auto manufacturers, etc? For that matter, under what article is the "right" to health care found?
I do believe you when you say you are opposed to Obama's policies. I acknowledge your seriousness and your passion. But I also believe you are wrong to dismiss as extremist the views espoused by those who are willing to call it as it is. Playing "nice nice" with these guys will get us defeated. Again.
The commerce clause gives
The commerce clause gives Congress the right to do just about anything where money changes hands. I oppose government run health care not because it is unconstitutional - some of it may be but that would be up to the Supreme Court to decide and not three guys arguing on a blog - but because it would cause the quality of care to decline, and would lead to rationing. Why just make stuff up about Obama wanting to be a dictator? Aren't those reasons strong enough without imagining that the president wants to throw out the constitution and rule by fiat?
98% of the economy is stil free of government interference. Has Obama tried to take over the grocery industry, the hardware industry, the steel, rubber, metal working, fabricating, plastics, industires and on and on ad infinitum? The fact that he's taken over autos and finance instead of allowing those companies to die a deserved death for their sins is awful, I abhor it. But how in God's name you can say with a straight face that Obama is taking over a $13 trillion economy or that he is in the process of establishing a dictatorship where elections will be rigged in his favor (or not held at all), the press will be muzzled, you and I will go to jail for opposing him, and constitutional guarantees will be tossed out the window - all describing the essence of dictatorship - is beyond my ken of understanding.
And how you can equate strong, principled arguments in opposition as playing "nice nice" with Obama is just plain wrong. You are intimating that just because I don't froth at the mouth when criticizing him, I am going easy on him. Again, using an emotional thermometer to judge the efficacy of an argument is juvenile.
I agree with your reasons for
I agree with your reasons for opposing "Obamacare", but I am not willing to discount the unconstitutionality of it as well.
However, to say that "98% of the economy is still free of government interference" is a bit of a stretch don't you think? You acknowledge the financial and automotive industries, and those alone make up a significant portion of the economy. I don't know the percentage, and I'm not sure economists could agree on one, but it is unquestionably significant. Health care alone is about 15% of the economy and we know what Obama wants to do there. If these three industries alone are under government control, how far are we from 50%? And exactly where is the tipping point? The critical mass? Add the union influence to the industries you mentioned and the picture gets darker still.
As for rigged elections, consider ACORN, and the Black Panther voter intimidation case that Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder refused to prosecute.
A "muzzled press", no, not yet, but there is no need for a muzzle when they are in the tank to begin with. And don't forget the White House request to forward those "fishy" emails.
Some may consider these instances inconsequential, and they could be right. My fear is that if we allow these things to occur without passionate opposition, we will progressively get more of the same until it truly is too late. I am not willing to take that chance. I understand the concept of picking one's battles, but some things are simply too important to be given a pass. I believe this may well be our generation's time.
A dictator? No, we aren't there yet, and I pray we will never get there. But I'd rather stand up now to fight against it than to wait and hope we go no further down that road. History is littered with citizenry who didn't think it would happen to them either. You and I are on the same side. My apologies for downplaying the legitimacy of your arguments, as that isn't my intent. They are strong and principled.
Guilty as charged for the emotionalism. I do love this country and I get passionate about her defense, as I know you do.
As a side note - I'm new to blogging, not new to thinking nor to writing. I appreciate the opportunity to debate with a blogger of your stature and experience. Do not consider that grovelling. (or I'll take it back)
http://commonconservativesense.com
A Field Guide to Communists
I think it's entirely reasonable to call Obama a "dictator in the making". The evidence is rather glaring and requires no special insight. Based on what Obama has said, and on what he's done especially in light of his mentors and associates and the people he is surrounding himself with as advisors, czars and so forth it is both a logical and reasonable conclusion to make. If one also looks at history it is far less reasonable to dismiss such reason and logic as crazy - unless you wish to identify yourself with the likes of Neville Chamberlain.
http://www.redstate.com/achance/2009/09/08/a-field-guide-to-communists/
In all reality
You can tag a writer "leftist", markamerica, but it will win you no prize. You're still ignoring the voices that have been speaking out since the election of 2006.
Republicans have nothing to offer.
What is the Republican plan for jobs?
Have a plan to lower medical care costs?
Separation of Church and State?
Winning this $10 billion per month war that has destroyed our economy?
So many questions. So few answers.
In all reality
The world of intelligent political ideas is bigger than the leftist blogosphere, little liberal. The country hasn't gotten significantly more liberal in the last 10 years (except on a few issues, like gay marriage), and the current Democratic majorities are because of candidates the fit the district (Blue Dogs), a smart campaign by Obama, and Republican incompetence.
I'm a moderate myself, but why go on a right-of-center blog if you don't want to leave your one-sided dogma?
Because I'm a real conservative.
I've been a member of the right wing since I signed the Conservative Pledge in 1964. I stumped for Goldwater and Reagan.
Have you forgotten those days?
The Days when you actually signed a pledge to join the movement?
The days when Conservatives were Republicans, Democrats and Libertarians?
The days when Limited Government was the battle cry?
The days when we allied to defeat communism?
The Conservative movement didn't begin as an evangelical movement. At the time, fundamentalist Christians hated our guts. They didn't join the Conservative Movement until the defeat of George Wallace. Many warned that fundamentalists would kill the Conservative Movement. They were right.
I'm on a right wing blog because I assumed it was right wing but I've been wrong before. The definition of conservative has changed to fundamentalist and the right wing has become the kook wing. Hell, Gay even used to mean happy so I guess all things change over time. It's hell to be old...lol
The Fundamentalists do not have an agenda...
The Fundamentalists have nothing to offer and all to harm. Look at the fundamentalist areas of this country. They are largely economically and culturally backward. Their children are the least educated and more likely to receive government assistance.
Really?
I am in the heart of the Texas bible belt. Strange place for an atheist, you might think...
Funny thing is, I live out away from civilization, on 40 acres of a horse farm, surrounded by cattle ranches and undeveloped areas, yet I have high-speed internet access, I have running water, and electricity.
My daughter scored in the top 3% on her SATs, and you know, I'm just not convinced of your assertions. Why is it that you assume that people who live out in flyover country are so bereft of knowledge or information? Why is it that you assume people of faith must be ignorant rubes? I am surrounded by people of faith, and none of them even hold it against me that I don't share their beliefs, but you know, we have one more collection of things here:
We have jobs. We have growth. We have economic activity. We have a state with a balanced budget. We have NO income tax. We have wide-open spaces. We are a 'right to work' state, where unions have little influence. Most of all, and the prerequisite for all those before it on this list, to a degree greater than most other places in the country, we have liberty.
Cast aspersions if you like. Stay there in your 'sophisticated' city dwelling. If I wish to walk out on my back porch and scratch my back-side to the seeing of the world if I like, and nobody is there to complain, or would even think to do so if they were there. You might ask "but why would you want to?" I don't. That misses the point. I can.
Try it out in your neighborhood. You'll be picked up for indecency or something similar.
Good luck with that.
M
My daughter scored in the top
The states with the heavy concentrations of fundamentalists--Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, etc.--do tend to fall toward the bottom of the education rankings.
revanchists?
Calling conservatives "revanchists" solely because they want to reverse policies enacted by liberals is silly. Most conservatives I know have principles they stand for other than defending the status quo solely because it is the status quo. If they were right to oppose the Great Society boondoggle at the time it was proposed, they are also right to call for it to be scaled back now. It would indeed be an odd mixture of liberalism and conservatism for anyone to argue that all the new expansions of the state that liberals support today are wrong, but all the expansions of the state they successfully enacted up through yesterday inclusive are right.
I'd like to
bring back the use of "reactionary". A "Revanchist" sounds like a member of a cult where they speak in tongues and handle snakes. On second thought......
Hard Sell
Rick, Patrick, Rod, and David are all proposing ideas that will make Reoublicans harder to beat in the future, not easier and yet, I back them 100%. Not because it helps Democrats to have a sane opposition party but because it helps the country.
The path that the birthers and deathers are on is the next Oklahoma City and violence. The vibe and ferocity is even greater that hat of 1995 when McVeigh carried out his terrible crime..
The brakes need to be applied to this insanity, applied very hard and very soon.
Countries are becoming more
Countries are becoming more liberal about certain issues. What can we do to topple down the power of politics? Though, not everybody has the supreme power to control everything. Still, we can do something.
Marius
http://www.examiner.com/exami
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-16211-Salt-Lake-City-TV-Examiner~y2009m9d7-Glenn-Beck-is-a-racist-not-President-Obama
The Birthers are the latest
I don't, and therein lies the problem this project faces. There are fringe nuts of every political stripe. They've always been with us, and always will be. The difference, today, is the embrace of this kind of nuttiness by the American conservative elite (the elite of both sides traditionally rejecting such nonsense), and the seemingly ceaseless efforts to "mainstream" it. Today, an astonishing 58% of self-identified Republicans tell pollsters they either believe Barack Obama isn't a U.S. citizen, or aren't sure. That is the "mainstream" Republican position. A poll about the fictitious "death panels" was released only a few weeks ago, with very hard wording--it actually used the phrase "death panels" and suggested people would be denied care based on their "level of productivity in society." Again, an astonishing 57% of Republicans said they either thought that was in the Obama reform plan or weren't sure.
More broadly, there is a creepy atmosphere of unreality in American conservatism, which is why such nutty notions are able to capture the imagination of so much of the right, without even leading them to question things like a liberal president wanting to pull the plug on granny. Honestly, of either the just plain ol' or the intellectual stripe, is as alien to Fox News, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Coulter, etc. as would be a man from Mars (simple human decency is almost as rare among them). The conservative population is conditioned to disbelieve anything that emanates from outside the conservative "bubble" (for some years, I've used the phrase "Bubble People" to describe such creatures). It then falls to other conservatives to try to get their heads out of their... bubbles, and those conservatives are, instead, encouraging the nuttiness. Charles Grassely is identified by the Obama as an honest broker on health care reform, and the next tday, he's out telling crowds there are death panels in the legislation, and telling the press he'll probably vote against any compromise legislation that will be worked out, regardless of what it is. Maybe this project is the beginning of a change.
My own perspective is that of someone on the left who is very concerned about the lack of any sort of credible opposition to dominant liberalism. There are plenty of fights on the left--Obama's vain efforts to placate the conservatives seem to be bleeding liberal support on an almost daily basis--but without a serious challenge from the right, I fear those of my own perspective will become intellectually lazy. I don't want conservatives to rule. I do want them to fight, and to be effective, in order to force the liberals to have to do the same. When the only opposition to notion x or y is "Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya!", that's not going to do one thing to help ensure that notion x or y are well thought-out, or point to potential pit-falls it may face.
http://lefthooktheblog.blogspot.com/
The Long Haul
I think Obama is basically an FDR/Johnson "New Deal" liberal who is working within the constraints of the current political environment. In his heart of hearts, he believes that single payer would be the best way to go. And in his heart of hearts, he knows that it is a complete political impossibility.
Speaking as an outsider (yeah, sorry, another one), it seems to me that there's a fundamental tension between the true movement conservatives and many of the constituencies that have served the movement in years past. When their interests and principles have been in alignment (and when the political/economic reality of the vast middle is perceived as being in alignment), it's resulted in the perfect storm for the movement.
But the current reality of things is less hospitable. While GWB pursued a certain strain of neocon foreign policy and abandoned the conservative value of fiscal restraint in the process, the larger issue for the non-ideological middle was that he made a mess of things.
Enter Obama and health care. Movement conservatives are rightfully (within the context of their core principles) horrified at the prospect of an expanded role of government in providing health care. (As an outsider, I respectfully disagree with the view, but at least it's one I can understand and engage.)
But what of the constituencies? There is, for example, nothing inherent in health care reform that speaks to the fears and concerns of the Christian Right per se. And the blue-collar social conservative may in fact be under some real bread-and-butter health care stresses due to unemployment or underemployment. And many small business people view health care as a growing burden, so the thought of having government take it off their backs is as likely to provoke expressions of relief as anything else.
So we have "death panels" and abortion, which strikes me as an effort to create some alignment between the core opponents and certain constituencies. All well and good.
The problem is this: The middle doesn't seem to be buying it. In spite of the attention given to the town-hall meetings and declarations by Sarah Palin, the most recent polling seems to suggest that the field hasn't shifted nearly as much as the average TV viewer might assume.
It's been good for Glenn Beck. But what's good for Glenn Beck is not necessarily good for the long-term prospects of the conservative movement. He's trying to activate and engage a well-defined audience for himself. He's not in the business of rebuilding the GOP.
I won't give the usual outsider advice to "run to the middle," partly because I don't believe it myself. But it is clear that there's a lot of hard work ahead for the conservative movement in getting clarity of purpose to the constituents outside of the movement's core. Pushing buttons for the sake of pushing buttons may get the constituencies riled up ad hoc, but unless those constituencies develop in the direction of core movement principles, it's going to remain very difficult to "activate the base" without alienating the middle over the long term.
And speaking as someone from the other side of the aisle, I'm very interested winning that middle. I suspect many of y'all are, too.
You complain of paranoid?
" Bush, a lawless right-wing thug who adopted political cleansing of government agencies, read our emails, spied on our phone calls, dug through our financial records, asserted he had the unchallengeable power to kidnap us and throw us in a hole without courts, laywers, any semblance of due process"
I'm sorry, but this is a forum for serious political discussions: not just another site for dropping shrill and fact-free Air America rants.
That has nothing to do with "paranoia"
However else you wish to characterize it, every assertion, there, is factual, and a matter of public record. You won't see a lot about it on Fox News (or, for that matter, in most of the rest of the corporate press, which is almost as bad), but unlike the Obama-the-dictator talk, those are things that actually happened, and any assertion to the contrary merely reveals the ignorance of those making the contrary assertion.
Pining for a last remaining vestige of financial privacy
Has now been transmogrified magically into a "shrill and fact-free Air America rant," and some people still wonder why I occasionally call the Republicans "The OTHER party of big government."
There seems to be people in
There seems to be people in denial that there is a culture war going on.
That the movement of a society (particularly Western Civilization in post 60s era) is just an natural occurance with no agitation involved.
I could write volumes about this subject. Volumes indeed have been written about this subject, by both those who sought changing cultural norms, and those who documented the strategies and tactics used to effect it. And the effects of those tactics and strategies
Anyone claiming "there is no culture war," has zero credibility.
Unfreakinbelievable.
"Culture war" in proper context
The "culture war" is a construct of, broadly speaking, the American money elite and their political servants, fabricated to wage good ol' fashioned class war against the general public (the "culture war" phrase itself was lifted directly from the Nazis). Convincing everyone there's a "culture war" is how that elite gets people to vote against their own interests. The economies in regions like the south and particularly the midwest are layed to waste by right-wing policies, but those policies are taken off the table by convincing those same people they are merely a force of nature, rather than a predictable consequence of very bad policy designed to maximize profits in their expense. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. The populations effected by these very bad right-wing policies are kept in the pocket of the very ones destroying them by convincing them that the real problem with America is baby-killing abortionists, illegal immigrants, pointy-headed intellectuals, hedonistic homosexuals, welfare recipients, godless heathens who remove prayer from schools, socialist would-be dictators, and the Hollywood "elite."
That "agitation" is, itself, a natural occurance. Suggesting otherwise--or, worse, taking offense at it--is taking offense at freedom itself.
The internal disagreements of
The internal disagreements of the coalition come to the forefront when governing.
Out of power, they will unite against the greater threat of New Left Radicals driving fiscally irresponsible socialist statism combined with their assault on traditional Christian values.
Its really quite simple.
I see so you are a
I see so you are a nutbag.
First you deny the existence of a culture war, then you defend it as liberty.
We can look at the fight over school cirricula and understand that their is cultural conflict there. We can even agree that defense of liberty requires that we accept that conflict.
What we cant do is deny that the conflict exists and then attribute the idea that it does to some nefarious elites trying to manipulate the masses.
Well, you can do that, but that makes you an internet nutbag.
Your reading comprehension is off
To the contrary, I noted that it exists only as an artificial construct, then broke down its real purpose. The "agitation" you decry, on the other hand, is a natural consequence of a free society. It isn't an afront to a "culture"; it's an integral part of it.
What those of us who are serious can't do is pretend as though any effort to change things is an assault on the culture, rather than a natural outgrowth of it--"it" being a free society (the culture in question). In order to maintain its prerogatives, that "nefarious elite"--also an outgrowth of the culture--deploys the "culture war" rhetoric as a means of organizing those who may otherwise threaten them into a force that, instead, serves their ends. Those who respond to the "culture war" wedge issues it employs to these ends do, indeed, try to undermine the free society at every turn, but their effectiveness is usually minimal, because they aren't intended to actually accomplish anything, insofar as those goals are concerned. They are there to maintain the prerogatives of that elite. Vote for a candidate who promises to ban abortion, all you get is an elected official who votes to deindustrialize the country to the benefit of that elite. Vote for someone who promises to keep the homos in line, all you get is an elected official who votes for tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. Vote for the candidate who promises to ban flag burning, all you get is an elected official who votes to take away your right to sue when your doctor goes into surgery drunk and leaves you a quadriplegic. And so on. You don't just screw yourself when you mindlessly fall for such nonsense; you screw all of us.