Fiscal Stimulus: doubling down on disaster

Dan Mitchell discusses the stimulus legislation.

At some point, our Leskonomics policy (free money!) of simply throwing more money at problems has to stop.  But that would require two things:

  1. Politically viable ideas for making more limited government electorally palatable.  Right now, significant cuts to the major programs would get many supportive politicians voted out of office; that's not a good strategy for winning.
  2. Leadership and charisma necessary to rally popular and political support for those policies.

Democrats don't seem interested in any idea beyond "throw more money at it", and Republicans don't seem to have any ideas at all.  Unfortunately, neither of them has a significant, immediate incentive to behave any other way.  That means our government is only capable of change when we actually run off the cliff.

0
Your rating: None

Comments

Republicans are Keynesians too, schlemiel.

you did hear the wardrums against Iran, didn'tcha?

good luck, and good riddance.

Time for a Balanced Budget Amendment

We really need a balanced budget amendment. The central problem is that the costs of big government and deficit spending are long term and have only a vague link to any specific program, while the benefits of specific programs are usually concrete and immediate. Its sort of like dieting: I know that I need to eat less in order to lose weight and get healthier, but the impact of any given snack or second helping on those long-range goals is minimal. The benefits of eating an extra cookie are immediate: I feel hungry and it tastes good. The cost of eating it is infinitismal - one cookie won't make me fat or make any noticeable difference in my weight unless I also forgo extra food on numerous future occasions. So losing weight takes a lot of willpower, and most diet plans aim to put some sort of artificial limit on eating.

Cutting government spending has the same problem. An extra billion or even a hundred billion won't make a huge difference in the national debt, so the incentive to rally against it is minimal. But the spending will provide tangible benefits to those who receive the funds, and perhaps to those who use whatever is built by them. All the meaningful incentives weigh towards spending the money.

A balanced budget amendment would change the dynamic because spending more money on one project would mean either raising taxes or cutting spending somewhere else. If the teachers' union wants another $50 billion for schools, they'll have to fight the construction industry that wants to spend it on roads, the AARP that wants to expand Medicaire, etc., not to mention taxpayers who would like a tax cut. Downside would be that it would make it difficult to cut taxes and could lead to tax increases, but that is one area where we have made a great deal of progress over the past 30 years. Its sort of the equivelant of beriatric surgery, but I think we need it. 

effective dieting plans

make sure that you eat less caloric things. that's the whole point of volumetric dieting. eat fiber, eat salads, lose weight, feel full.

We're in an L-shaped recession -- the type that took Japan ten years or more to get out of. Can we at least wait until we stop the deflation? I'd love a balanced budget ammendment, but not at the cost of America going bankrupt.

Category mistake

Conflating the long-term goal of shrinking government with the current stimulus debate/shenanigans is counter-productive. The time for conservatives to rally to the banner of shrinking the government was January of 2001. We blinked and missed an opportunity.

Credible plans to actually shrink the government, as opposed to posturing about it, will require planning, foresight and a generational commitment to the objective. If we are really serious about making government smaller perhaps we should start small. What would be required to actually end the federal role in education in America, for example?

Prerequisite would be a thorough analysis of the current role including all the direct and indirect inputs. Plans to build elective consensus around the goal including honest and detailed cost/benefit analysis would be needed. Further, specific plans to unwind all the inputs would be required along the way as a significant cost will be disruption of the current systems.

In short, even this somewhat modest goal would require a huge effort. To tie such aims to the debate about the stimulus does not seem serious to me; in fact, it sounds like johnny-come-lately posturing.

I agree with everything you have said.

But I don't think our current political structure has the power to achieve even the most modest government reduction in spending without an absolutely genuine need to do so, short of a totally bankrupt economy -- which, by the way, is exactly where we are headed if we don't control government spending. The price of which, as we all know, will be the loss of our sovereignty, our liberty and our freedoms as a people.

Simply put, we must stop government income before government spending can be controlled. Congress, is the only body who can undertake such an action, according to my high civics teacher. And try as I might, I can't find any explicit law authorizing a tax on individual labor, however; I have been assured the IRS has been indirectly given that authority. In any case, if Congress was to pass a law that would stop the taxation of individual labor while a recession/depression existed, I am pretty sure we can clear this present and future recessions up quickly and with minimum fuss.

ex animo

davidfarrar

I see that a bit differently

iirc, Reagan's team tried to starve the beast, but it didn't work.  The deficits piled up.

Spending has to be cut first.

The GOP missed a big opportunity toward that with the stimulus.  Instead of demanding cuts to existing programs to off-set the costs, they demanded more tax cuts.  The wrong time for tax cuts, I would say.

Note to House Republicans:  In general, any massive spending bill is a great time to attack waste in government. 

I like that.

however, any lost gov't job puts fewer dollars into the economy. So maybe I'm saying... "don't fire people, redirect people to do better things with our money." Does that make some sense?

American way

Americans are a can do people who are willing to make big investments for big payoffs.  We bought Alaska, went to the moon, built the interstate system, and have the most expensive military on the planet (by a big factor).  What you call

 simply throwing more money at problems

is American investment in the future.  Not all investments pay off.  Much military spending is wasteful. 

As it happens, most ecoomists think the stimulus will help a lot, and will pay for itself in the long run.  This cannot be said of the Bush tax cuts, which put the country into debt without getting much for it.

Remember the 2008 "Stimulus" Plan?

Study finds poor bang for the buck:

 Link (pdf):

Because of the low spending propensity, the rebates in 2008 provided little “bang for the buck” as economic stimulus. Putting cash into the hands of the consumers who use it to save or pay off debt boosts their well-being, but it does not necessarily make them spend. In particular, low-income individuals were particularly likely to use the rebate to pay off debt. We speculate that adverse shocks to housing and other wealth may have focused consumers on rebuilding theirbalance sheets. Given the further decline of wealth since the 2008 rebates were implemented, the impetus to save a windfall might be even stronger now. Hence, those designing the next economic stimulus package should take into account that much of a temporary tax rebates is likely not to be spent.

 

 

But we don't have...

"...a long run."

We have until 2017.

ex animo

eg

davidfarrar

 

investment and fear

Ya know what?  If you want to debate the merits of a particular investment that you think government ought to do, then go right ahead.  But one big objection I have is that we are being bashed over the head with insane calls that WE MUST DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS VERY INSTANT, OR DOOM WILL BEFALL OUR GREAT NATION and somehow this is justification enough to throw money at all sorts of problems while claiming they are investments.

The trip to the moon was a deliberate, planned effort.  It was not rammed through Congress in less than a month's time based on manufactured fear and falsely justified as economic stimulus.

umm... where have you been?

our credit crisis is continuing, and has been since around october or so. NOBODY has been getting sleep since then. And the scourge is spreading, quickly.

If you were told you didn't know how long you had to live, wouldn't you do what you wanted now, and not wait a week or a month?

I trust Dr. Doom -- Nouriel Roubini, I trust Krugman, and I trust Conjure Bag. They are some of the most intelligent people we have, and they're all in favor of drastic action as soon as possible.

Global Depression Clock: 12:59:59.5

The situation is dire, and every day new news reports bring us closer to the edge. Once we cross over into deflation, the American government is gone. We will go bankrupt, the petrocurrency will collapse, and America will no longer be a superpower.

I can trust that every senator has a wishlist, and that they're putting decent things on the stimulus. I've seen the healthcare plans, and they're reasonably solid.

"triumph of hope over experience"

so you trust the fearmongering economists and dismiss the others?  why is that?

profit motive. the people who take their advice

have done better in the past year than the folks who were all "no recession lalala". Once we're out of the L-shaped recession that these fine folks predicted, then we can reassess reliability (the market, being a notoriously psychological phenomenon, is quite likely to behave differently once the bulls take over again).

Notwithstanding the two nobel laureates on that list (whose opinions are to be valued), the 200 economists represent a very significant minority viewpoint. I'd be interested in hearing what they want to do to solve this, because at this point, I'm all in favor of the kitchen-sink approach. Sadly, all they've done is say "Don't do This" -- which is unhelpful.

2002 all over again

This debate sounds very much like the debate over Iraq.   Republicans insisted "something must be done, and this is something".   Democrats insisted "don't do this; it's risky and unnecessary."   Republicans insisted that no is not a policy, and Democrats should get out of the way and let the adults run things.

And now, Democrats insist we should ignore the skeptics and just spend a ton of money on a stimulus hypothesis that doesn't actually have much historical evidence that suggests it will work over the long term.  But hey, there's always a first time.   Let's call it an economic Surge! 

WTF?!?

How is this trillion dollar welfare bill going to liberate 25 million people from one of the most brutal tyrannies in human history?

That's an easy one

Actually it will lift 1.2 billion up from tyranny, when we default on our debt owed to China.

rofl.

you think it will take that long? we're in a global economic depression, and that will test china's authoritarians all by itself...

no is always not a policy.

and I can, thinking back, understand your point. The people who are out of power don't have much to do, particularly in the House. And the Republicans offered their own stimulus bill, anyway.

To date, we have about one comparable Global Depression. That one, most economists agree, was something that we got out of by government spending, mostly on WWII.

I think that's substantial evidence for the stimulus. You may disagree.

But unless your programs address the deflationary spiral that is forming, I won't be terribly inclined to listen. And cutting taxes doesn't help one whit when it isn't in someone's best interest to invest today (versus tommorrow, or the day after, or whenever the deflation stops). It also doesn't address the likely bankruptcy of America, should that deflationary spiral form.

you know we actually have plenty of time on the stimulus

not on the nationalization of banks -- I should have been much more clear.

Debate away. Call your Senators. Make this count, and count conservatively just as much as liberally (however that may be). CBO thinks this won't get passed for a while at least. And any calls that embarrass a senator or congressman are likely to get something stripped out of the bill.

Get the Mealer 3R on FOX NEWS!!! HNN, CNN

We need all the help we can get to have Fox News and maybe CNN, HNN put me on the air so we can save this nation's economy in the private sector. WE NEED JOBS and USA MFG. This is it folks... In brief, so let's do what we can to save America: HELP DO YOUR PART!

WE MUST GET THIS RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.. In the private sector! 

THE ECONOMY and MEALER COMPANIES SOLUTION... the ONLY viable plan.

The economy has not disappeared due to one problem, but several problems. The main problem is also the solution with which we will revive the economy.

Everyone must agree that with the best mortgage, the safest mortgage and the best loan possible... Not a single man or woman anywhere can purchase on credit without a job. good paying jobs at Walmart or Home Depot selling Made in China junk or scrap lumber will secure a loan... especially with the lay-offs we see today and will see tomorrow.

USA jobs, mainly in the manufacturing sector is the solution and I have the means to get there.... I won't waste breathe or your time with too many details of this solution that MUST be instituted in the private sector now. There are so many "experts" out there who come up with bad ideas... I am not an 'economic expert' who has polished seats with his/her hind-end more than having done anything else.

This plan I worked out was done so as to offer a replacement the fuel taxes that Mealer American Motors Corporation automobiles would eventually do away with. *MealerAMC autos also act as home power sources...

The government (of any country) would lose hundreds of billions in fuel tax revenue and have no decent way to re-gain it. The 3R changes that!

If you can now grasp why I have put extensive researched into this plan, you can read on....If not.. Start over and read slowly.

All communities nationwide would gain immediate revenue from these training programs and local community colleges would benefit as well.

The Mealer (aka McCain) 3R Economic Energy Plan entails utilizing the millions of vacant buildings (like old Walmart and stores that were put out of business by Walmart) as hands on training in USA MFG. America has thousands of '3R teachers' looking for jobs and many of them from old union killed businesses that are now in China and Mexico. No matter what the trainees build... It can be re-sold as Made in USA quality products. Does anyone remember the days when most products in America had that stamp?

Huge tax write offs for building owners do differ payments or donate buildings or years of lease amounts, plus fair write offs for equipment that is purchased and deferred. (I have spoken with several USA tooling companies and they are thrilled to work this way!)

Paid 3R Schooling is a great moral booster and means even more American jobs.      Paid?     Sure..      The students are paid to learn as per federal and state higher education/school programs, PLUS they earn a percentage of the products that are sold. Once again, I checked... Even 'evil' Walmart will stock these goods... If some slave labor Red China Communist or a poor child in a sweatshop can build the Chinese junk we buy today... A skilled (and learning) adult American can do better.

Another huge revenue source is packaging these small private businesses as commodities (...checked... it's legal) and selling them to the thousands of  "Speculators".. You know, like the crude oil speculators who helped destroy the economy we are now being forced to save?  "Packaged an group commodities" makes these businesses much less likely to fail, and I am certain teams or memberships will be formed to help one another when certain manufacturing is slow in demand.

These small businesses need not compete with the Walmart made In China craze that really killed the economy. They need not manufacture billions of 'widgets'... only thousands. There is no monopoly in the deal, just a great job to be had. This of course, is after the trainees are out of the schooling stages and several of them past the advanced business law schooling  -'quick classes' (they can learn as they grow the companies)... These people with the proformas would find the huge new class of investors looking for huge profits, take their packaged team of loosely collected USA MFG companies as one LLC or Corporation and put a lot of people to work.

For every USA MFG position, a new economy around that person would be created in food services, clothing, etc... including housing and local government. THIS IS HUGE.

Go ahead, find the problems with this plan (typos excluded)... I know your concerns.

I already have the answers and they are well researched and legal answers.

There is no other way to save the economy.

NONE!

 NOT A SINGLE VIABLE PLAN, except the 3R...

If you can find a better plan, I will buy it!

Just like Mealer Companies products and our non-fossil fuel, non-EV automobiles are the next phase for technical growth, this economy saving plan is IT for the future of America and the world economy.

No. Don't even suggest what you are thinking...Neither Mealer Companies, nor myself make a dime from instituting this plan and saving America... I refuse to.

 HOWEVER, I do plan to sell every American one of my cars and take us off the grid when possible...

 HOPEFULLY... See me on FoxNews soon!

 John Lewis Mealer

Mealer Companies

 

Training - and then what

Corporations are currently laying off their already-trained-up workers. Training more workers is not a solution to our current economic crisis.

Putting politics aside. What

Putting politics aside. What more junk can be made. We are competing with someone who can put an extra chocolate chip into a cookie. And that knocks the other guy out. Add to that Chinese and other countries doing it with cheap labor. Even American companies can no longer compete with the others. Home Depot is closing stores, Disney closing 98 stores, other companies are going broke.

So my emphasis has been energy independence, infrastructure spending, mandatory vocational training, embryonic stem cell research, science, innovation, and research and development. You compete in the world with new industry. You cannot remain stagnant in a globalized economy. We need to make that 100+mile batter on a charge. We can make airlines more efficient and more profitable with a new air traffic control system. We need a better electrical grid. We will need to find jobs that will stay in this country. A big challenge at that. 

Fighting Back

You said:

Democrats don't seem interested in any idea beyond "throw more money at it", and Republicans don't seem to have any ideas at all.  Unfortunately, neither of them has a significant, immediate incentive to behave any other way.  That means our government is only capable of change when we actually run off the cliff.

Countries make mistakes.  What is saddens me is that most of the people in the US are sober, center-right citizens.  Most people live their lives conservatively and productively.  But they've been bullied into accepting the Left's narratives or just simply bought.

But, what to do?  Without some great organizational efforts protest loudly (like the Left has done for the last many decades) there is little hope.   If the right could stop quibbling over arguing over differences within their own ranks they might have a chance. 

Once in a socialist system other countries seem to have a hard time liberalizing themselves.  I take that to mean that living off of other peoples money and letting other people make the decisons is a pretty comfortable life.   Which means in turn that a chunk of people are already pretty comfortable.

We also have to recognize the reality that Obama won with an vast money advantage, a huge media advantage, and a financial crisis to boot.  Yet he did not win in a landslide. 

The Left and the media will always try to smugly portray Liberalism as historical inevitable. 

Basically, we have to stand up for the much maligned middle class.  The rich will do quite well under Obama.  The politically connected will do quite well.  The poor will get some stuff and a lot of attention.  We have to say explicitly these things.  We have to use phrases like politically connected.  We have to say that the poor will get attention, but not much else.  

We have to say that the standard of living is much less in the EU than here.  France has $32K gdp  per capita vs. $48K for the US...that's quite a hit to take so that the Pols and the Left can feel good about America.

We have to speak truth to power, the fakery of the Left should be hammered.

If Obama does HALF of the cronyism that is

evidinced by the Bush-era wallstreet, i'll fire him my damn self.

Most folks in America are ideologically center-right, but policy center-left. you've won the media war, child, and maybe should start finding ways to actually make people support your actual policies.

one way would be to stop saying "veterans benefits are the new welfare", and kick those crazies to the backbenches.