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Dick Cheney Backs Gay Marriage
Eventually, I suspect many conservatives will come around to this "live and let live" position on gay marriage - especially after various states enact it and people grow comfortable with the reality that it's not actually destroying society any more than, say, showing Elvis from the waist down. - Jon Henke
Dick Cheney said a lot of things I don’t agree with, but he did repeat his support for gay marriage. While he is undoubtedly influenced by having a gay daughter, hopefully Cheney will be able to convince other conservatives to reconsider their position:
Speaking at the National Press Club for the Gerald R. Ford Foundation journalism awards, Cheney was asked about recent rulings and legislative action in Iowa and elsewhere that allowed for gay couples to legally wed.
“I think that freedom means freedom for everyone,” replied the former V.P. “As many of you know, one of my daughters is gay and it is something we have lived with for a long time in our family. I think people ought to be free to enter into any kind of union they wish. Any kind of arrangement they wish. The question of whether or not there ought to be a federal statute to protect this, I don’t support. I do believe that the historically the way marriage has been regulated is at the state level. It has always been a state issue and I think that is the way it ought to be handled, on a state-by-state basis. … But I don’t have any problem with that. People ought to get a shot at that.”
- JHT's blog
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Comments
True. It is now up to President Obama
True. It is now up to President Obama to support same-sex marriage. At least that would be nice.
Eventually?
So much for principles, right?
The gay-marriage debate highlights precisely why the mantra that the right is for smaller, less intrusive government is a farce.
That the right generally has to be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting the notion that individuals, not governments, are best suited to determine the contours of their own lives reveals the hypocrisy and emptiness of rhetoric that hides the real motivation of the right; vast control over our personal lives. Gay rights. Women's rights. The War on Drugs. Terry Schiavo.
Can an intelligent right-leaning individual actually believe, anymore, that the right stands for a smaller, less intrusive government?
Conservative rhetoric and
Conservative rhetoric and conservative practice are certainly quite different.
It makes sense. What if the Republicans campaigned on a platform of supporting big government which intrudes more in your life? They wouldn’t get anywhere so instead they claim to be doing the opposite.
Awesome post.
Timothy--
Awesome post. Exactly.
-Pain
empowering individuals over government
Fine. Let us assume for the sake of argument that "the right" does not really stand for a "smaller, less intrusive government". Do you stand for a "smaller, less intrusive government"?
In another blog posting you mentioned that you are a liberal democrat who is actively involved in Democratic Party politics in your state. In that comment you also mention that you are in favor of "letting individuals, not governments, decide and regulate their own families and their own bodies." Considering that you've mentioned empowering individuals over governments twice now, I find it hard to reconcile this view with your strong affiliation with the Democratic Party. From where I stand, as a conservative, I see Democrats more willing to use government to lump people into groups, and not respect their dignity as individuals. I see Democrats who propose nationwide programs intended to solve nationwide problems, yet these programs do not take into account the separate struggles and challenges of individual Americans. I don't claim that the Republican Party is perfect on this score either, but I certainly don't see it with the Democratic Party.
I'm not accusing you of hypocrisy or anything, I'm simply trying to understand how you come to this reconciliation. Perhaps you can justify nationalized health care simultaneously with "empowering individuals over government", but I can't see it.
chemjeff...thanks for the
chemjeff...thanks for the question.
In short, I do support nationalized health care. Health care is a terrible commodity. A single-payer system will provide better care to more individuals than our current system of employer-paid and insurance-driven health care. Our current system devalues preventative medicine, exacerbates financial hardship, and penalizes children. The mythology of the evils of nationalized health care as perpetuated by the Right are unfounded and unsupported by the data.
Nationalized health care will save us money and provide us better access to better health care. That, in turn, will create less burdens on individuals, freeing them to pursue a life more of their choosing.
Let me ask you a question. Is the notion of "conservative," the title you choose for yourself, meant to imply that you think it is the role of government to socially-engineer a certain type of community values? What, precisely, are you hoping to conserve?
empowerment and conservation
Timothy,
Regardless of the merits or demerits of these arguments in favor of nationalized health care, how does it "empower individuals over government"? It seems to me that nationalized health care would not empower individuals over government; rather, it would make individuals dependent on government, and subject individuals to government's political decisions on health care. So I don't understand how you reconcile "empowering individuals over government" with your support for nationalized health care. That is the essence of my question.
With regard to what I hope to conserve: I'm a big fan of Burke on this score. I believe society is a fragile, delicate, interconnected web encapsulating the inherited wisdom of the customs and traditions of countless generations. Its complexity is beyond human comprehension. We mess with it only at our peril. So I'm not in favor of "socially engineering" anything, because I don't think it's possible to do successfully. What I want to conserve are the traditions and customs of the past that has led to the extraordinarily free and prosperous nation that we have (well, minus the socialist bits). To the extent that customs and traditions are no longer compatible with modern values, then let's change our customs and traditions organically, via consensus, instead of having the imposed by judges. So that's what I believe.
What about the past instances of sudden changes for good?
What about all the past instances of sudden change that flew in the face of customs and traditions? Such as democracy, disestablishment, freedom of the press, the abolition of slavery, free public education, public professional police and fire services, women's suffrage, court-ordered de-segregation, laws against gender-based pay discrimination - to name just a few. Would you turn your back on any of these?
Regardless of the merits or
chemjeff...you've restated my position with an important addition of your own; I didn't say "empower people over government" and I rarely do. More on that distinction later.
The oppression represented by poor healthcare is not primarily from bad government, it is from bad health. You ask your questions as though absent government provided healthcare, individuals will not be in bondage to other forces. For example, individuals, now, are beholden to their insurance companies (a decision most often made by their employers), and the decisions that they (the insurance companies) make in a tradeoff between benefits and profit. You seem to be arguing that it is better to be dependent upon a business person whose incentive is to provide as little healthcare as possible. I simply don't agree, and it's pointless to compare nationalized healthcare with the mythology of libertarian, fantasy healthcare that doesn't, and won't ever, exist.
Now, back to the "empower people over government" statement. The mantra of the Right, that Government is always evil and always the enemy is an outdated notion from prior to the founding and flourishing of our new form of government. In a secular pluralistic democracy, wherein basic fundamental rights are guaranteed, Government is short-hand for "the people." So, given that, let's rework your statement. "Empower people over the people" is nonsensical. If there is oppression, that oppression belongs directly to "the people" who supported by voting and other methods to institute a given mandate. Arguing against a lifeless form called "government" misdirects blame (and praise) in an important way.
more empowerment, or lack thereof
Well, I'm not terribly interested in discussing minutiae of nationalized health care, I only use it as an example of an initiative, generally supported by the left, that represents a gigantic growth in government. Suffice it to say, though, that I do not favor nationalized health care, nor do I favor the status quo.
First, that is not "the mantra of the Right". Conservatives aren't anarchists you know. Conservatives are quite willing to accept government where it has a legitimate role.
But, more importantly: You say government is "a lifeless form". But, simultaneously, government is not merely an agent of the people. After all, there is strong public support for, e.g., term limits - every time it has been proposed in a referendum at the state level, it has passed, and by overwhelming majorities. But a Constitutional amendment for Congressional term limits has never been successful in Congress. Why not? And every time term limits was imposed by referendum at a state level, invariably, legislators tried to water them down. Why? The reason is simple: government is a separate entity, not identically equivalent to the will of the people. Legislators, as a general rule, won't limit their own power unless they are restrained from doing so. I believe this is the inherent wisdom encapsulated in the Constitution with its separation of powers and its enumeration of explicit powers entrusted to Congress.
Here is but another example: the bailout of GM. There is strong public opposition to bailing out GM and yet the government is doing it anyway. Why? Here again government is not merely acting as an agent of the people. I believe there are both benign and corrupt reasons for why the government is bailing out GM. But, if government didn't have the power to bail out companies in the first place, we wouldn't have to speculate on any possible corruption.
But here is an even more profound point. Even if we accept your premise that "government = the people", it is still not the case that "government = me" or "government = you". A representative government can only represent the will of the majority, never the personal opinions of individual citizens. So if we want to preserve individual liberty - the right of an individual to act according to his/her own preferences, which are distinct from the preferences of the majority - we can't let the will of the majority run amok. The only way the majority can take away my or your liberty, other than through naked force, is through government, hence the concept of limited government. I favor individual liberty over the will of the majority, because I don't believe the majority is capable of acting in my best interest as well as I can. The majority's interests and mine don't always coincide, and it is no doubt the same for you.
So I apologize if I misstated your position earlier, but you did write "individuals, not governments, are best suited to determine the contours of their own lives" and also "I am for such terrible things as letting individuals, not governments, decide and regulate their own families and their own bodies." So I hope you'll understand if I thought "empowering individuals over government" was a fair description of your position.
But, my original question still remains: How do you reconcile your support for something like nationalized health care with a belief that "individuals, not governments, are best suited to determine the contours of their own lives"?
public choice theory
Oh, a subject that you may want to contemplate on the whole "people = government" hypothesis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice_theory
What I want to conserve are
Interesting. You present the development of history toward secular, pluralistic democracy as a conservative endeavor rather than a progressive endeavor. Are you suggesting that, only by slowing the wheels of progress, we've landed in the place we are at? I'm curious; do you think, were we to go back in time and pick out all of the crucial moments of change that have led us to this point, that conservatives would be the champions of those changes or the opponents of those changes, more often than not?
My guess is that you'd find conservative ideology, by its nature (including what you've listed here) would be opposed, more often than not. The changes that have led us to this "extraordinarily free and prosperous nation" are more likely to have been championed by those forces outside of conservative ideology. Right? Isn't that logically necessary?
response
See:
http://www.thenextright.com/chemjeff/what-do-conservatives-want-to-conserve
I agree with you
I hope President Obama is better than the previous U.S. president.
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On Gay Marriage
Why do the tyrants who want to jam Gay Marriage down the rest of our throats continue to call us "Gay bashers"?
I personally don't care what two people or two dogs, cats or people with cats or monkeys or horses do in their private places. In fact, if truth be known, they can do it on the school lawn for all I care.
What I do NOT and will NOT go along with is changing the definitions of things. When we change the definition of things we really are being terribly dishonest, slinky and sleezy.
The fact is that our creator created us to procreate and fill his Kingdom. You don't have to believe this if you don't want but I consider it truth. In order to do this procreating one needs to mate - add male sperm to the female ovum. Well there you have it. Some 6,000 years ago [at least] the Jews referred to this as "marriage" [the English word for the same concept]. But the concept of marriage, whatever it was called, has existed for much longer.
If two guys tried to "procreate" they would surely fail, as would two females. Only by playing games, such as buying some other party's sperm and mating it with an ovum can any offspring result. Or, today, I suppose two guys could "adopt" a child but this would not truly be "procreating", and neither would it be a marriage.
Boys and girls in the Scouts and men in the military live together in bunks and barracks and they may even like each other a lot, but this can't be construed as a "marriage".
My point is that we should stop trying to call "black" "white" and "marriage" something that Gays can partake in. For God's sake, call it something else, please and lets eliminate the game-playing and confusion AND all of that hatred that issues as a result.
Now you have confused me
What I do NOT and will NOT go along with is changing the definitions of things. When we change the definition of things we really are being terribly dishonest, slinky and sleezy.
I have always found this argument fascinating and opaque, so perhaps you could explain a couple of things for me.
As long as you don't care what people do in the privacy of their own homes. why do you care what they CALL what they do in the privacy of their own homes?
Every language that has ever existed has drifted over time as words are re-defined or cultures change. French, Spanish and Italian all started out as pure Latin about 1500 years ago and then drifted apart when isolated from each other by the collapse of the Roman empire. Every modern language has had its "purists" like yourself who try in vain to keep that from happening. France even has a bureaucracy in place to keep English words from creeping into common use. Your argument is not with "liberals," it is with the nature of language itself, and everyone who has ever taken your side in that battle has lost, as the French are certainly finding out.
If two members of the same sex call their relationship a "marriage," their use of that term does nothing to affect my marriage. If you feel that it threatens your marriage or abets our enemies to modify the definition of a single word, then please, PLEASE explain how.
What is the specific danger to America from changing the definition of a word?
Thats so gay.
Please enlighten us.
The word "gay" when I was growing up meant "happy".
The homosexual community the usurped the word to mean "homosexual".
My kids usurped the word to mean "stupid".
However, the gay community thinks that that use is derogatory.
However, you say:
So, gays complain that the word gay is now used to mean stupid. Opposite sex couples complain that the word marriage is being used to include same sex couples.
You can't have it both ways (pun intended).
you're in favor of bestiality on the schoolyard lawn?
... you must live in the south [emphatically not southbashing. this is research-tested (umm... people take videos. and people in the south really like their dogs). ain't reality a bitch sometimes?]
also, public bestiality doesn't sound very conservative to me!
And my black friends
call each other by a word I won't use in any company.
Despite the fact that in my mouth it would be an abomination, it doesn't bother me to hear two other people use it, because it is how they defanged an epithet.
The gay community has adopted "queer" and "gay" and "fag" for the same reason. When you say, "So, gays complain that the word gay is now used to mean stupid," I want to know who speaks for the "gays," and when and where this "complaint" first appeared. My brother is gay and I thought I knew how he felt about stuff, but apparently you know him better.
AFAIK there is no official spokesperson for "the gays." Are you claiming otherwise?
Try to stay on track
I am not talking about what gays call each other. I am talking about the morphing of the word "gay" and the fact that there is a movement in the gay community to limit the meaning of the word to what they want it to mean, even as they ridicule same sex couples who want the word "marriage" limited to a meaning they identify with.
Where did the complaint originate? I don't know, I first saw it on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2205049197
A quick Google search will bear out that it is an issue.
Sounds like you think your brother's opinion is the only one that counts, only to turn around and say there is no spokesman for the gay community. Lame. The days of claiming the highground in a discussion like this because you have a friend or relative that is gay have long since passed. Most of us have friends and relatives that are gay. Lame, lame, lame.
Satisfied
Without questioning anybody's motives, I'm just content that he spoke out on the issue.
It's one thing to be serving under a president that has a different policy than you do and feel pressured to tow the party line. It's another thing to be a private citizen out of office and have the latitude to speak your mind. That's my take, anyway.
Incidentally, standing against "gay marriage" or what I would say equality of marriage for everyone is the least Republican thing I can think of. Since when is separate but equal, equal? Aren't we the party that doesn't have to necessarily agree with your choices or your actions or your desires to shout from the rooftop for your right to them anyway? Why do we have to approve of someone's lifestyle to respect their right to it? That's the antithesis of Republicanism.
Anybody else?
and the fact that there is a
News to me. But then I never got my handbook and membership package. I'm sure there's groups out there that are against a lot of crap, mostly just so they can be against something, I'd imagine.
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However, statewide, four
However, statewide, four states have legalized same-sex marriage as a result of a court ruling, while three others have done so through a vote in their respective state legislatures.
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