Big Brother wants to ride shotgun in your car

I'm a near RINO from the suburban Northeast who supported Rudy Giuliani and the Patriot Act.

So when my back is up about a proposal as being destructive of civil liberties, maybe this is something that might resonate with the apolitical general public

Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/03/AR2009010300412.html

PORTLAND, Ore. -- Oregon is among a growing number of states exploring ways to tax drivers based on the number of miles they drive instead of how much gas they use, even going so far as to install GPS monitoring devices in 300 vehicles. The idea first emerged nearly 10 years ago as Oregon lawmakers worried that fuel-efficient cars such as gas-electric hybrids could pose a threat to road upkeep, which is paid for largely with gasoline taxes. ......

In Oregon's pilot program, officials equipped 300 vehicles with GPS transponders that worked wirelessly with service station pumps, allowing drivers to pay their mileage tax just as they do their gas tax.

Whitty said the test, which involved two gas stations in the Portland area, proved the idea could work.

Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.

Another concern is that such devices could threaten privacy. Whitty said he and his task force have assured people that the program does not track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies.

"I think most people will come to realize there is really no tracking issue and will continue to buy new cars," Whitty said, noting that many cell phones now come equipped with GPS, which has not deterred customers.

Well, Mr. Whitty, last time I checked Verizon didn't bill me based on where I made my calls. I also can turn off my cell phone, now can't I.  Verizon also is not the government.

Let's look at this extraordinary proposal. I'm sure Oregon needs money to fix roads and maybe the gas tax is obsolete. Fine. But do we need to respond by creating a system where the location of every vehicle in the state is tracked every moment of every day on whatever road it gets driven on?

I have an EZ Pass to speed my way through toll booths in NY State, NJ  and MA. They've been very effective in divorce litigation to puncture alibis.  This would be taking that de minimis privacy violation (one can choose not to use EZ Pass) and placing it on steroids.

I'm not buying "the technology is primitive" argument. I've seen pictures of my house on Google Earth where the color of my car in the driveway was easily visible. I have little doubt a GPS tax tracker will become equally detailed.

There is also the fact that once the American public buys into allowing their cars to be tracked morning, noon and night by the government all you fans of the Second Amendment will find this puts limits on gun registration on the road straight to Heller.   (yep, you can't ban guns but we'll put tracking chips on all of 'em)

I recall Chris Dodd shut down the Senate when the FISA act was used to "invade the privacy" of a few terrorists calling overseas. I'm sure now the Senator will voice outrage that technology would be used to track the whereabouts of every law abiding citizen in a, ahem "Countrywide" fashion?   Right? It's one thing to trade some freedom for security. See Justice Jackson's take on this. 

 Trading our liberties to make the taxman's job a bit easier? What of that, our liberal friends?

There's a reasonable , less intrusive way to implement this. If the state wants to tax the use of certain roads and do "time of day' pricing in congested urban areas, just put up old fashioned toll booths and let people get EZ Pass if they choose. And if they want to do a mileage tax, make it like the 1040 and require drivers to self assess annually. The shortage (if any) can be paid at sale or trade in of the car by checking the odometer and collecting the shortfall then at time of transaction.

Simple, proven and no privacy concerns.

But the bigger implications here is that liberals want to change behavior and know about behavior. It's not about collecting the most money the most effiicient way possible to pay for their stuff.  Many people in government aren't mercantilists, they are social engineers.

And a database of personal whereabouts is a virtual treasure trove for them to correct our behavior. Maybe I should trust the goverment with this personal data.  After all, this stuff is never used to harass political opponents, now is it? 

Now , you might think... this is just some tree hugging state on the Left Coast out to impose itself on its populace. Not so. This is gonna to be , as ZZ Top sang, bad, and nationwide

There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this.....

Congress is talking about it, too. A congressional commission has envisioned a system similar to the prototype Oregon tested in 2006-2007.

The National Commission on Surface Transportation Infrastructure Financing is considering calling for higher gas taxes to keep highways, bridges and transit programs in good shape.

But over the long term, commission members say, the nation should consider taxing mileage rather than gasoline as drivers use more fuel-efficient and electric vehicles.

As cars burn less fuel, "the gas tax isn't going to fill the bill," said  Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon, a member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committeehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/03/AR2009010300412.html

 

We are likely to see a tsunami of lefty social engineering proposals try and blitz a dazed public in the first weeks of the Obama Administration. I would like to think this is one socialist vehicle that ought to be disabled in the driveway before it gets down the road and runs down the Fourth Amendment.  

Who's with me?

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Comments

Scary.

Wow. This is utterly terrifying.  And you're also right about toll roads being a much more effective way of charging per mile.

A non-issue

Illinois already has those black boxes for its toll system.  The benefit to the motorist is not having to line in line so long at the toll gates and paying once a month in a lump sum.

Also, Missouri already taxes the horsepower of an engine.

 

Besides, wasn't it the GOP, all the way back to Reagan, that wanted to increase 'use fees' to make up the shortfall from reducing taxes-- even going so far as changing the filing rules for copyright with the Library of Congress?

But I've been saying all along that use fee increases were a bad idea.

It's good to see some people agreeing with me. 

Did you not read my post?

1. I have the east coast version of what Ill. has. The point is: IT"S OPTIONAL

2. I sorta like user fees. In fact, I've paid tolls on bridges and thruways around her my whole life. As for a generic user fee....Didn't you see how I explained how to collect them in a non-invasive manner?

3. What does taxing engine displacement have to do with one's privacy?

I'm actually understanding of the revenue needs of state government. But if you have to explain you're not being "big brother" in collecting revenue, you already are.

 

Big Brother comes to Oregon

The Big Brother implications in this scheme are obvious.  And our lefty friends here like Progressive Traditionalist still find the time to defend it.  These of course are the same liberals who screech about "Big Brother in the bedroom".  If I parked my mandatory-GPS-equipped car in the bedroom, would P.T. then object to it?

This reminds me of a conversation I had back in the 90's with a European liberal over national identity cards, when that debate was raging here in the states.  The conversation went something like this:

Me: "National ID cards are a bad idea. It would allow Big Brother to keep track of everything I did."

Him: "So?  European countries have them right now and they aren't totalitarian hellholes. Besides corporations do the exact same thing, they are called credit cards."

Me: "That's different. I can choose not to have a credit card. I can't choose not to have a national ID card."

Him: "You aren't being consistent.  Corporations use credit card info to track everything you do."

Me: "And what makes you think government wouldn't do the same thing with national ID cards?"

Him: "Because....because it's the government!"

It's worse than a national ID card

unless the card had a real time GPS feature.

My argument against Second Amendment purists has been I thought that de facto a car was as essential to contemporary life as a gun was at the time of the Founding Fathers. If a government agency will have the power to know where you are or where you've been ( and you will have the afffirmative burden to argue "I wasn;t using my car" "your equipment is in error" et al) and will have to advance zero justification besides revenue collection (CT limits GPS tracking now to paroled felons); we've slid a long day down that proverbial slippery slope.   

That's a terrible false equivalence

No, I'm against use fees because I believe there are certain things that you get just by being there.  Like being able to walk down the sidewalk without having to pay a fee for steps taken.  Or being able to go to a park (at any time!) without paying a fee, provided it is a public park.

It's the old law of the commons.

 

More like "the tragedy of the commons"

The practical history of infrastructure in my part of the country is when it has a toll, it gets maintained properly. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Tax dollars tend to get diverted to more politically rewarding uses than keeping roads and bridges in top shape. 

Also, tolls cause the cost of economic decisions to be borne by the party that benefits. Perhaps roads in thinly populated areas need subsidies so as to maintain an effective system.(I'm sure North Dakota needs extra cash to keep I-94 running)  But the enormous expense of urban infrastructure often can and should be carried by the folks who use it.

The socialization of costs--whether it be bridges, mortgage insurance or whatever--often leads to overcapacity or excessive risk taking since someone else picks up the tab. Or leads to funds being spent for political expedience, not prudent investments.

Driving sometimes leads to running off the curb...

...but most people aren't so scared of it that they never go anywhere.

The other fallacy here is in the directional flow of money as a given.  There's a presumption that the people using the roadway stand to gain.  Some might well be commuting to a shopping district, in which case it would be the merchants there that stand to gain (provided other opportunities for such shopping exist).

But as far as that goes, I think that tolls run counter to our ideals as a nation.  It's a free country, but only for so long as you can get from point A to point B.  Tolls are a significant form of oppression.

 

If it costs $7 to cross the Triboro Bridge

I've made the conscious decision that I am at least $7 better off crossing the bridge than not crossing it. How is that different that deciding I'm at least $7 better off eating lunch than not eating it? Should McDonald's also be a free good? Repeat after me...there is no free lunch 

Let me get this straight

You're crossing a bridge to get to a McDonald's?  $7, I'd say you got screwed.  I only paid $5 to get into Delaware (I never wanted to go there in the first place...).  $3 gets you into Manhattan.  Only 25cents to get into Pennsylvania.

If McDonald's wanted to charge me a $7 cover charge to eat at their fine establishment, I would gladly tell them to go stick it.

Added to this...  There's not a burger to be found on the one side of the bridge?  There's no place to eat over there?  What is this place, Deliverance?  Not one pizza place, not one chinese place.

Are there other humans about?  Do you have sticks and rocks and stuff to where you could fashion crude tools?.

 

what?

OK, the present toll on the TB is only $5 . It's $10 now on this bridge.   (I was already figuring the next Paterson/Bloomberg toll hike in my mind) Obviously you don't pay the toll unless what's on the other side is worth it. Much as you don;t buy lunch unless you are willing to part with cash to stop being hungry. Is the concept that hard to grasp?

How about this concept. We'll start sending everyone's meal selection when they go to restaurants to a database at the Surgeon General's office so we no longer have to pay by the meal---they'll just bill you once for all your dining for the year.  Think one might start getting hassled by the feds for drinking too much coffee or eating too much red meat, or is that also like a plumber worried his personal information will be sent to the press?  it's not like liberal officials aren;t already playing food cops

Considering that the GPS locator on your car could easily be linked to when you visit fast food restaurants or donut shops, maybe we can just let DMV handle this.

Tolls

"... I think that tolls run counter to our ideals as a nation."

This is just a sappy appeal to some sort of watery ill-defined pseudo-patriotic sentiment.  I'll take your schlock and raise you one: Collectivizing costs runs completely contrary to the capitalist foundations of this nation.  It's this same mentality that gives us Bailout Nation.

"Tolls are a significant form of oppression."

Yeah you're right.  It's oppressive to ask poor rural farmers to pay for the roads on which elite city dwellers drive from the coffee shop to the indy theater.

I'll file that one under 'Over-reaction'

I was stating that, inasmuch as freedom in personal liberty is our defining goal as a nation, then tolls are a serious impediment to that; not so much on a practical level, but ideologically.  I don't see what's so sapy about personal liberty.  Either you want it, and you're willing to trust your neighbor with it in order to have it; or you're unable to trust your neighbor with it, so you're willing to give up some measure of it to keep them out of it.

Now then, I believe that the founders foresaw the need for collectivizing certain costs, as the revolution was partially funded with debt.  So knock it off with the false dichotomy of 'Socialism vs Capitalism.'  It's probably not possible that either could exist in pure form, and you sound just as irrational by evoking it.

It's not oppression because of who's paying.  That has nothing to do with it.  It can be shown that either side benefits from the other having adequate roads.  Makes it a lot easier to preach that Globalism when you've got a road to the airport.

It's oppression because it's an infringement on personal liberty in the public areas.  That simple.  Typical of neocons to view freedom strictly in economic terms while ignoring the most blatant abrogations of personal liberty.

 

that's funny. in WV you pay for parks

when you go. If you stay in a State Cabin in PA, you pay for parks.

Don't you have to pay for tent camping?

I really like the idea of being able to walk anywhere, on anyone's private property, so long as I don't set fires or trample a garden. But that's a Scandinavian tradition, and I can see why others might get ruffled at the suggestion.

competence issue?

the government can't do jack because it's too dumb.

not sure if i believe that one.

sure as sunday it would get it's pants sued off.

you saw what happened to the Real ID thingummy.

The benefit to the motorist

The benefit to the motorist is not having to line in line so long at the toll gates and paying once a month in a lump sum....thank you Stop Dreaming Start Action | Rusli Zainal Sang Visioner | kenali dan kunjungi objek wisata di pandeglang | mengembalikan jati diri bangsa | Sukabumi | lowongan kerja | webdesign murah

Oregon Punishing Fuel Efficient Cars

That's what charging by the mile means.  So much for all commitment to encouraging people to buy fuel efficient vehicles.

And Oregon wants to know where you have been and for how long.  Liberal Democrats run the state.

whomever cares runs the state.

read nate silver's analysis

Social engineering

Government socially engineers behavior all the time, whether it intends to or not.  We call those things taxes, tax incentives, grants, SBA and FHA loans, college tuition for military service, etc.

Let us argue the merits of what is being socially engineered instead of raising the altogether ridiculous bugaboo of "social engineering."  T D Williams has a far better argument in the punishment exacted of drivers of fuel-efficient vehicles.  That is an argument from the consequences of a policy rather than the old anti-Soviet (and rationally weak) objection to social engineering.

Let the states experiment

First off, I have to quibble with you equating tracking your car's whereabouts to listening in on your phone conversations - it is more like pulling your phone records. If your ex-wife wants to have  PI tail you, he can do so, legally - but he can't wire tap your phone.

I don't see anything unconstitutional in this proposal. So. if the voters of Oregon want to try it out, let them experiment with it while the rest of us watch and learn. I love the idea of states as "laboratories for democracy" - remember how important Tommy Thompson and Wisconsin were in welfare reform?

well, if the folks in Oregon want to live in a fishbowl

that's their immediate problem. Being forced to do so myself, well, I'd rather stop it now then later.

It's the coercive nature that particularly bothers me. 

You can walk, ride your bike, or take public transport

Sorry, I just don't see how monitoring your car's presence on the public streets is such a massive infringement on your liberties. Theidentity of the car's owner is already out there on display, via your license plate.

You have the option to walk, ride your bike, or take public transport.

well, it is a viable option

in about 40-50 of the nation's congressional districts. I would submit that outside the City of Portland, deprivation of a motor vehicle would be a very severe sanction for an Oregonian.  Try lugging groceries on a bike?  Think buses go to small towns anymore?

This is also how technology destroys memes."Well, your car is visible in public already".   Instead of the present labor intensive effort to physically track the whereabouts of a car and its license plate (hire any PI's lately?); it will all be on some government server awaiting a download instruction.   

Welcome to the Brave New World. Where things we all took for granted get taken away in the name of "progress".

Who is depriving you of a motor vehicle?

Who is forcing you to go the grocery store on a bike? You can cycle to your super-secret clandestine meetings and then use the car for the everyday run of the mill stuff.

 

Well, I took up your "options"

You know, once NARAL realizes that this could be used to track women on their way to Planned Parenthood centers , then the privacy advocates will be out in force.

less than ten dollars to go 200 miles across Washington State

man i love public transportation!!!

And my good man, I take a backpack to the grocery store, and I walk two miles to get there. That is not a very severe sanction, just part of normal exercise regimen. If you need to get a scooter, or something else that runs on sidewalks, that's considerably cheaper than a car.

Do people really ride bikes on highways in WV? I keep on seeing signs saying that X road where everyone is driving at least 60mph is a bike corridor... I dunno...

I'm sure it's not too intensive to take a satellite picture...

Well said

I think that's the best approach.

I believe ThinkTank stated the proper concern.

I think this is more a case of urban vs rural.  I'm sure the people who are driving 30 miles or better to work aren't the ones pushing for it. 

Oregonians get to decide whether this works for them

I don't have a problem with it as long as it protects us from the terrorists. :)

Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit) agrees with Ironman

Limo Perth

Interesting post that got me thinking. I really like reading on this subject....

Limo Perth

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