A failed president and failed ideologies

Submitted by In between on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 23:15

Ohio

Well, I don't know where to begin with this, there is so much to talk about. I could right a book.

We have seen the failed ideologies from both parties. The democrats went to far with welfare and the Great Society in the 60's and 70's. Today we have a failed president. He happens to be republican, but it could have been a democrat as well.

We have witnessed in the last 8 years some of the most ignorant and arrogant policies that we will witness in our lifetimes. It shows how far a political party will go to the right. We have seen tax cuts for the rich and the middle class lose their jobs. We have seen the attempt of religion being put in government (think embryonic stem cell research). We have seen neoconism used to brainwash people in that we had to go to Iraq.

We have witnessed real simply for the past 8 years: Our jobs going overseas, our money going to Iraq, the neglect of our infrastructure, a military stretched thin, the use of religion, deficits and debt, cities and states going broke, laissez-faire, ignorance, arrogance, lies, deceit, and blunders. And yet people like Hannity and Limbaugh will not talk about it. Total denial. The republican party does not get it.

We have seen Bush come in with his trickle down theory of tax cuts. Of course to have tax cuts you have to borrow money. So we borrow from other countries. At the same time we are fighting two wars and we have not paid for them. So that means more borrowing and creating deficits and debt. We never saw any cut back in spending by the republicans for six years as they had control of congress. Just total arrogance.

We also targeted housing from the democrats, the republicans, and from Alan Greenspan. And we see the bubble.

Well here is the problem. As I have said, all we have done is send our jobs overseas, our money to Iraq, and neglect our infrastructure. And to make everything "fine" we borrow more money from other countries to keep our country going. I don't know what kind of economic books the republicans are reading. I have never thought such idiocy existed.

Also one other point is that Bush hid his cost of the war for two years or so in emergency funding and hid it from the American people. But today we see the deficits and debt.

So going through the whole 8 years of Bush we have had tax cuts.

>Did the tax cuts create wealth?

>Did the tax cuts sustain economic growth?

>Did the tax cuts bring in revenue? As we sit with deficits and debt.

>Did the tax cuts solve any problems? Like our jobs going overseas.

So we ran our country on tax cuts which is just borrowed money. This creating a false economy. Bush talks of free trade, but at the same time factories close. At the same time cities and states are going broke. You can create all the tax cuts all you want, but if our jobs are going overseas, then the tax cuts mean nothing.

We are back into a recession and the tax cuts are spent. Today, Bush is leaving with a 500 billion dollar yearly deficit, and has added 4 trillion dollars of debt. These are unheard of numbers. This does not count the latest financial crisis of bailouts for the bank, the auto, and the housing industry. These numbers do not reflect what Obama will spend to get us out of a recession.

Now how do you get out of this recession? The tax cuts have been done for all these years and now are all spent and anymore will be ineffective. We have had a stimulus plan, but all that does is have people buy Chinese goods. And in the meantime we keep sending our jobs and money overseas. And the federal reserve is printing the money. That means inflation perhaps 3 years down the road. All of this is a bad scenario. Obama is trapped in a corner.

There is only one way out. It is not perfect and it will require more deficit spending, but this should be at least the right kind of deficit spending.

The first thing to realize is that we have GLOBALIZATION. And no one, but maybe Obama, has picked up on this. A lot of our jobs are vulnerable to going overseas. There is good reason. Companies do not want to pay middle class wages, healthcare, pensions, social security, and OSHA. So why not have third world labor.

This is where the republicans get it wrong. Our problem is not having enough tax cuts, or housing. It is jobs. And it is GLOBALIZATION. And it is the MIDDLE CLASS.

So here is the plan, and this is not perfect. We need to take care of the infrastructure (to be limited), have energy independence, mandatory vocational training, embryonic stem cell research, and research and development. We have to do whatever it takes to create jobs, prosperity, and economic growth in this country. And all we have seen in 8 years is just games and lies.

I doubt that any republican gets this. They do not understand what they have done to the middle class. They do not understand GLOBALIZATION. They want to put people in their hierarchy like Sarah Palin or someone else. All politics as usual. The republicans are caught up with the religious vote, their failed ideologies, and laissez-faire. You have to cut spending and at the same time create revenue and create prosperity and economic growth. We have to compete with 1 billion Chinese and 1 billion Indians. And that is third world labor. We have to create jobs that will not be vulnerable to going overseas. This is a tough call. We are at war. It is the fight for our jobs. We are an older society that will rely on more government. China will grow at least 5% a year and we are sitting in a recession with 0% growth with a burdensome debt. We already know who will win. So sad to say.

I hope the republicans get this. They are in denial. They hang on to old ideologies. And all we need is management and a vision. We created the intestate system, had the Manhattan project, and put a man on the moon. Now we are leaving science, vision, and curiosity to other countries.

I thank you for your time.

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A Kick In_Between Your Legs

Submitted by americanmale on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 00:02.

<<We have seen the attempt of religion being put in government (think embryonic stem cell research)>>

Some might say that terminating the life of a fertilized embryo is murder....which is against the law. Embryonic Stem Cell research requires fertilized embryos...and the taking of a fertilized embryo is by definition, an abortion. You don't know when life starts. The issue has yet to be fully determined.

<<We have seen neoconism used to brainwash people in that we had to go to Iraq>>

In 1991, we were asked to go to Iraq by each and every Arab kingdom. They all were concerned Saddam Hussein, a Sunni, was going to continue conquering the Arab kingdoms, one by one. We removed Saddam, implemented a CEASE FIRE with conditions. Throughout Bill Clintons' reign, we continued monitoring compliance with the terms of the CEASE FIRE. Saddam gassed the kurds. He slaughtered the Shia, and, he stole from the Oil For Food. George Bush simply resumed active engagement. CHECK THE HISTORY. There was no surrender, there was no end to the 1st phase of the gulf war.

<<Our jobs going overseas, our money going to Iraq, the neglect of our infrastructure, a military stretched thin, the use of religion, deficits and debt, cities and states going broke, laissez-faire, ignorance, arrogance, lies, deceit, and blunders>>

These are all some convoluted perception you have. You give no basis for your opinion.

<<And in the meantime we keep sending our jobs and money overseas>>

You keep hopping on the idea of sending jobs overseas. Well, you can start a company...and hire american workers. Or, if you are an employee (ie non business owner), you can realize that other countries have less regulations, no need for minimum wages, no unions, etc. which make producing products overseas a better deal. Putting it simply, an overseas worker (and the environment) is better than anything you can offer as an employee. You are a telegraph whereas the overseas labor is a full blown word processor. Not sympathetic. But true.

Still worried about GLOBALIZATION, Do you know that when YOU shop at the Walmarts or Targets, you are voting for Globalization. You don't pay the 5 extra dollars for that GI Joe that you would if you bought from your local toy shop in town. No, you run right over to Walmart and pay 1.99. You buy the imported goods. You think you've got a good deal....Hurrah for you. When in fact, YOU FORCED Globalization through your actions.

You probably drive a foreign car...Did you get a good deal? I hope you saved the $2000.00. You, are clearly unaware that you, the consumer causes globalization. American business needs to be competitive. They need to find cheap labor because the Walmarts and Targets won't pay the "made in america" price....because YOU WON'T PAY THE MADE IN AMERICA PRICE.

Don't blame Bush. Look in the mirror.

We just had an election

Submitted by Progressive Tra... on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 03:09.

One you might call a 'throw the bums out' type of election. I don't think it really demonstrates any shift in ideology.

You see it happen at the local level, too. Plenty of it.

But this comment shows why it's going to be difficult for the RIght to regroup.

Were the years of the Bush administration a basketball game, you would call it a smear. Ran the game the whole first half. Took a few hits late in the third. The fourth period was more of a squeaker, but there was no way the other team could catch up.

Now, the GOP seems to have forgotten that accountability is supposed to be one of those conservative values that policy is based on. Loyalty to the party has come to outweigh any values or ideology.

One of the best things about the election is that the Right won't have to keep apologizing for Bush anymore.

Lost two houses of Congress, the executive branch, and still can't take a hint.

Republicans still in denial

Submitted by In between on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 08:41.

We have seen a lot of things under the Bush administration. From failed ideology, loyalty to the rich and others, and complete blunders and arrogance and ignorance.

Bush got most of what he wanted. His tax cuts, his war, and never attempted to cut spending. We see the results of deficits and debt and more. It takes a few years for all this to happen and we see the results. And it will take many years to clean up this mess.

I don't want to shy away from the democrats. We know how far left they can go. But we also see how far right the republicans can go. Yep, they are still in denial.

All one can do is run the country in the middle. And at least manage, get away from failed ideologies, and have a vision. And recognize the problems of the day. At least, that is the way I see it.

For me, there is not much reason to vote republican. We have seen the middle class being trashed around. We want opportunities, we want greatness again. That is not much to ask for. That is what our country is about.

Re: We just had an election.

Submitted by americanmale on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 10:19.

<<Now, the GOP seems to have forgotten that accountability is supposed to be one of those conservative values that policy is based on.>>

Is anything stated in my post false? Refute. Don't opine and then draw conclusion based upon opinion.

<<But this comment shows why it's going to be difficult for the RIght to regroup.>>

On the contrary. It is a widely held belief that we lost in th realm of the internet. We believed that statements based upon silly opinion without fact would be disregarded. We were wrong. Thus, we will refute any textual commentary. Nothing goes unchallenged...no matter how small. This is how we are going to regroup.

<<One you might call a 'throw the bums out' type of election>>

Could be a valid interpretation. However, the shoe is already on the other foot. 10 percent of the democratic party is feeling alienated due to the democrats failure to provide leadership on an issue that is near and dear to their hearts; gay marriage. You've also got the stank of corruption surrounding the president elect, his chief of staff, and the governor from Illinois.

I think people are already running after us on the way out saying "Wait a minute...Hold on there....Don't go too far."

There is a massive falsehood in your post

Submitted by NextRightNando on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 10:42.

Namely, your feeble attempt to rewrite the history of why we are in Iraq now. W told us it was becasue of 9/11 and WMD. Both lies, as we know now. But I guess you agree with him on this point "so what?"

BUSH: One of the major theaters against al Qaeda turns out to have been Iraq. This is where al Qaeda said they were going to take their stand. This is where al Qaeda was hoping to take–

Journalist: But not until after the U.S. invaded.

BUSH: Yeah, that’s right. So what? The point is that al Qaeda said they’re going to take a stand. Well, first of all in the post-9/11 environment Saddam Hussein posed a threat. And then upon removal, al Qaeda decides to take a stand.

Re: There is a massive Falsehood

Submitted by americanmale on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:24.

Sorry NRN, the war didn't start in 2002. We had long been in Iraq. Since 1992, we had been actively entrenched in the north and south of Iraq. Now if you talk about having a presence in Baghdad, then yes, the second phase of the war did call for going to baghdad....but only after Saddam violated terms of the cease fire...ie gassed the kurds, decimated the shia, and stole from the Oil For food program.

It was unfortunate that the administration thought it necessary to titilate the public's imagination with Weapons Of Mass Destruction (Nerve gas is actually that), Yellow Cake Uranium, etc. just so that the public would give a blessing for resumption of active engagement.

However, we were in Iraq for noble reasons, Al Qaeda did go to Iraq because that is the most economical and least complex places to make noise. There was no way shape or form that they were going to get back in to america under president bush...so they took their cause to iraq...another plus for the Iraq strategy...

There is something to be said for the magnet effect...ie fight them over there, draw them out of the shadows...but most importantly, keep them out of america and give the domestic agencies time to regroup, analyze, and create barriers.

Total, complete and utter BS

Submitted by NextRightNando on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:39.

here is nothing "noble" about the administrations reason's for going back to Iraq. I am amazed that you can dismiss the tissue of lies and fabrications that were used to convince Congress and the American people that we need to launch this fiasco as "unfortunate". More than 4,200 American troops killed and more than $600 billion spent so far - all for a pack of lies.

Re: Total BS

Submitted by americanmale on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:58.

If you believe that Iraq started in 2002, then you would have a point. but Iraq didn't begin in 2002. Ask any Iraqi citizen. It has been a 17 year war. Period. History and fact support this statement.

From 1992 through 2001, the country was figuring out what the word Yahoo had to do with finding things on this huge electronic document library called the internet (preceeded by the Arpanet). Monitoring cease fire compliance was not a forefront issue in the minds of america. We had a forceful republican congress which was driving the discussion on issues, a president who was doing the nasty with an intern, and yes, a failed Al Qaeda attack on the World Trade Center.

Just because Iraq wasn't the lead story on the Nightly News didn't mean that Iraq wasn't a major issue. Saddam was gassing people. He was decimating Shia, he was stealing from the oil for food program. Although he was caged betweeen the Northern and Southern No Fly Zones, atrocities were still taking place...and most importantly, terms of the Cease Fire were being broken over and over again (expelling of Inspectors).

BS is an opinion by you. Fact is fact.

The fact is

Submitted by NextRightNando on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 13:26.

The fact is that none of this would have justified us going back in, so the Bush administration worked up their lies and sold them to Congress and the people. Which is, of course, a betrayal of the idea that we are governed by the will of the people.

Learn the rules of rhetoric and don't presume to lecture me

Submitted by Progressive Tra... on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 21:30.

1) I am not opining at all. This is simple A + B = C.

I am stating unequivically that your statements lack accountability. That is, you have lost statesmanship for the sake of partisanship. What I'm saying here-- and I want you to understand this-- is that your ideals are without substance. Got it?

2) That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The internet didn't lose the election. The internet wasn't even on the ballot!

There are two movements going on here: one is the most unpopular president in the last 50 yrs, and the other is a strategically managed campaign. That is, is breaks down into positives and negatives. The GOP got stuck with too many negatives this time around.

The internet might speed things up, but it doesn't create anything. (...and it doesn't get rid of anything either.)

Where we are now is working toward a stronger 2010, and developing a program for the management of the time in between.

The GOP is now a minority party. But any decent boater could tell you that steering upstream is more sensitive to any movement from the rudder.

3) Sure, the dynamics play to the GOP.

But that's where the noise machine loses its effectiveness.

One big lesson that I've yet to see anyone really bring up is that the right-wing talk radio has started to limit the party. You could see that in McCain's tepid reception, even after he won the nomination. Another 6 yrs, those people will be so antiquated, the media will keep them around as clowns for when Brittney didn't do something squirrelly that week.

Again, I heard tonight on the radio that Obama intends to post on the internet any WH meetings with outside groups. Contrast that with Bush's 'mushroom' strategy.

Bottom line: The American people are no less conservative than they were; they simply couldn't stomach much more of this incarnation of what it means to be a conservative.

Still in denial

Submitted by In between on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 08:23.

<<embryonic stem cell research>>

There are some 300 fertility clinics across the country. The embryos are the size of a period at the end of the sentence. The embryos are still being destroyed, so Bush has done nothing but stop the science. It takes government money to do the science, since it is too costly for corporations and the NIH was doing this before. Singapore is moving ahead with the science and they are taking our scientists away. So Bush has not solved the problem. He just imposed religion on the issue. So this is just denial of science and the American people lose again.

<<Iraq>>

Well, there is plenty of evidence that we were brainwashed in going to Iraq. You can look at youtube, PBS, and CBC videos. Our fight was with Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda and Bush changed in midcourse to go to Iraq. It was the policy of this country, not to go to Baghdad as this would be a quagmire. And it was a quagmire. It took the Iraq Study Group to come up with suggestions, and finally it was Bob Gates, General Petraeus, and Crocker who came up with the surge to gain the upper hand.

Bush never talked to Bob Gates, James Baker, Brent Scrowcroft, or his father. And when asked Bush said "I believe in a higher authority."

Bush had the White House full of neocons, all yes men, the Wolfowitz doctrine, and the diversion of what we were supposed to do and that was to go after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

Bush never had enough troops and never paid for the war. The whole Middle East attempt has been one blunder after another. Over 4400 troops dead, many more injured, many Iraqis dead and injured. So we ended up with a mess in Iraq, the abandonment of Afghanistan, drove Al Qaeda into Pakistan, and made Iran the new leader in the MIdeast. After all of this, we still do not have Osama Bin Laden.

The first war was to get Saddam out of Kuwait. The job was done. Any further would have been a quagmire. And we found out that was true.

<< Jobs going overseas>>

How are you going to start a business in this environment? And what can be made in this country, when you have third world countries that can do the job. I take the position that we will never compete as companies do not want to pay middle class wages, healthcare, pensions, social security, and OSHA. So we have to address globalization. Every time Bush has talked about free trade, factories close up.

So we have a problem and I see no answer from the republicans. I expect management. I expect recognition that we have a problem, instead of having just tax cuts and laissez-faire. People fear for their jobs. And as long as you have that, you cannot solve one problem with the mortgage/housing issue, the auto makers, the economy, and the revenue the cities and states need.

All the economic books will tell you that the customer will buy the best product at the best price. Again, we cannot compete with third world labor. We have seen for 30 years how Japan took our textiles, most of our steel, our electronics, and our autos. It starts with cheap labor in the beginning, then market share, and then it is bankruptcies of our companies.

We see the same with China and other countries. They will take the rest of what we have. We see it today. And nothing is done. We need a visionary, we need policy to deal with this. And that is not protectionism. But we may have to find a way to create jobs in this country that will stay in this country. Now that maybe in the form of infrastructural spending, energy independence which has been ignored, mandatory vocational training to have a well educated workforce, embryonic stem cell research to be the best in science, and research and development to make materials that we can be a leader in. For instance, China will be selling a car in America that gets 63 miles to a battery charge. We need a Manhattan project and make cars that will go on 100 miles to a battery charge or more. It will take the effort of government and industry to work together for a common cause.

So today we are losing to globalization. Our infrastructure is in neglect. Cities and states are going broke. And we are losing the middle class. We need a new air traffic control system. We need a new electrical grid. We need to fix the water pipe infrastructure which will cost 277 billion dollars according to the EPA. There is so much that needs to get done. We can sit around with the republican failed policy of tax cuts and laissez faire or we can do something about it. The Bush policy is to ignore problems and neglect the infrastructure. Only when something falls apart, then we start to bail everyone out.

The republicans are behind the times. Look into the future, instead of looking at failed policies.

And I will leave you this:

"Mission Accomplished" clueless

"I believe in a strong dollar" clueless

"We are winning the war on terror" for three years as the war was getting worse. Clueless

"Brownie, you're doing a heck of job" clueless

"free trade" as factories close. Clueless

"America, has no problems" Clueless, shown on you tube

deficits and debt

And a war on a lie

January 20th will be an end to a nightmare. The dumbest and most delusional president of all time.

Re: Still In Denial

Submitted by americanmale on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:02.

<<The embryos are the size of a period at the end of the sentence>>

Uh...What font size would that be? Arial 12pt Bold, Verdana 24pt Bold? The questions surrounding embryonic stem cell research deal with whether or not that fertilized embryo is life. Many people believe that life begins at fertilization....after all, that fertilized embryo will eventually mature into what all people define as a living human being.

<<It was the policy of this country, not to go to Baghdad as this would be a quagmire. And it was a quagmire. It took the Iraq Study Group to come up with suggestions, and finally it was Bob Gates, General Petraeus, and Crocker who came up with the surge to gain the upper hand.>>

The elected representation voted unanimously to go to Iraq. After Saddam was expelled from Kuwait, a cease fire was implemented. terms were broken by saddam, active engagement was resumed. READ HISTORY before you opine.

<<How are you going to start a business in this environment? And what can be made in this country, when you have third world countries that can do the job. I take the position that we will never compete as companies do not want to pay middle class wages, healthcare, pensions, social security, and OSHA. So we have to address globalization. Every time Bush has talked about free trade, factories close up>>

Identify a market need, go down to your town and state offices, and hang a shingle outside your place of business. Can't be competitive...oh, it must be the governments fault. Take responsibility. This isn't a welfare state. No one owes you anything. Can't find a job. Retrain. Jobs don't come to you, you go to the job.

<<China will be selling a car in America that gets 63 miles to a battery charge>>.

Do you even know about the chevy volt? Or the Tesla Roadster. Instead of watching the videos on google owned youtube, why don't you see what the owners of google are driving....I bet it is the Tesla Roadster. As for the infrastructure issue you keep hopping on....well, i'm sorry you have a pothole in front of your house...but I would point out that you display a disconnect....do you fix the infrasture for alternative energy vehicles...or do you fix it for combustion engine based vehicles. There is a weight difference.

<<And I will leave you this:>>

And I will leave you this...."I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN".

In Denial about why we invaded Iraq

Submitted by NextRightNando on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:19.

On at least 532 occasions top Bush Administration officials stated unequivocally that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, or was trying to produce or obtain them, or had links to al Qaeda, or both.

Named in the study along with Bush were top officials of the administration during the period studied: Vice President Dick Cheney, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan.

Bush led with 259 false statements, 231 about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 28 about Iraq's links to al Qaeda, the study found. That was second only to Powell's 244 false statements about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 10 about Iraq and al Qaeda.

Re: Still in Denial

Submitted by In between on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 12:15.

<< embryonic stem cells >>

The bottom line is that we still destroy the embryo in fertility clinics. So I see nothing solved and we lose on the science. Thousands of embryos have been destroyed under Bush even with his vetoes. I guess lies mean something.

<< Iraq >>

The Bush administration did everything they could to brainwash congress and the American people. That this was a war on terror, when our fight was in Afghanistan. And as we see today, we still do not have Osama Bin Laden.

And I would say, know your history why we did not go in there in the first place. Talk to other people with opposing views and not have all yes men. Again, everyone knew it would be a quagmire. But for some people the lessons are never learned. Many people died needlessly.

But we know what this was about. It was the neocons that wanted to go in there for the Wolfowitz doctrine. We paid a price for that.

<< identify a market need >>

Well, you have all the answers for jobs. The factories close and countless restaurants are closing in town. And it isn't only here. It is especially in the Midwest.

You want tax cuts for the rich and the rich takes their jobs to other countries. You want to spend money in Iraq and neglect the infrastructure. You don't want science because it is against your bible. Cities and states are struggling and you have no answer. Same as Bush and the republicans, just no answer. Sure blame everybody, blame the cities and states as the plants close up and go to China. You really think I could start a restaurant where businesses are leaving?

We are losing ground to China. It is China that has 5%+ growth. It is the U.S. that has 0% growth and no way out of this recession.

No body wants welfare. We want a future, a vision. Again, the republican have no vision. Just have your tax cuts, laissez-faire, wars, and free trade deficits and debt and everything is dandy. And blame everyone else.

<< Chevy Volte >>

The Chevy Volte will cost over 30,000 dollars, the new Chinese car 21,000 dollars. I doubt the Chevy Volte will get the kind of mileage that the Chinese car can do. We need to strive for 100 miles to a charge. The Tesla costs 100,000 dollars. So lets be real.

We need a Manhattan project. It is the only visionary way of going.

But again, you don't care about visionary thinking and science. You don't care about our infrastructure. And that is the clear sign of our country in trouble. We can no longer run our country without borrowed money. We no longer have a vision for new jobs and new technologies that will keep us competitive with other countries.

You are just as delusional as most all republicans. You still don't see what is happening around you. I suspect you are a social conservative, and I am a fiscal conservative. That is where the disconnect is at in the republican party. You see things in rose colored glasses and fail to see the problems with a globalized economy.

So you can wallow in your deficits and debt, and failed trickle down policies. We will go nowhere as China has economic growth. They are the ones that are building whole cities, the tallest of buildings, the largest airport, and the longest bridges. We are losing our middle class, our factories, our infrastructure, and our cities and states need help as we send 10 billion dollars a month to Iraq.

But like Bush says "America, has no problems."

The idea of this web site, The Next Right, is to get ideas why the republican party is failing. And we still see the denial.

What you would call denial,

Submitted by Mytheos_Holt on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 16:59.

What you would call denial, most of us would call "rejecting the narrative put forward by the Democrats."

Yes, we've seen mistakes during the Bush years. Thank you for stating the bloody obvious. We simply disagree with your diagnosis of which mistakes were mistakes, and the reasons for their execution. That is not denial. It is an honest difference of opinion. I have neither the time nor the desire to refute your various hang-ups, but you're not going to get anywhere suggesting that the Republicans are still mired in Bush, and that his presidency was emblematic of going "too far to the Right." Bollocks! Most, if not all, conservative commentators have acknowledged that Bush is no conservative, even if he does do some things they approve of. If you think he's as far right as it gets, then you've got another thing coming.

And by the way, clearly it is you who doesn't understand globalization, or you wouldn't be putting forward this "they took our JORBS" (misspelled intentionally) nonsense, which every economist worth his salt will refute. The United States is a service economy, with over 60% of its employment concentrated in the service industries (check the CIA World Factbook if you doubt me). Just about 25% is in manufacturing, and those are the only jobs we are "losing." Service jobs (the classic service commodity is a haircut) are largely non-exportable.

yawn. tell that to the indians

Submitted by RisingTide on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 17:01.

who are finding their helpdesk jobs outsourced to romania... why dont you?

Doctors can be outsourced, particularly specialists. Hell, I know people who are working on that right now.

With the responses I get,

Submitted by In between on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 18:32.

With the responses I get, denial seems to be the appropriate word.

One of the things that I have noticed is the republicans are split with social conservatives and fiscal conservatives. Bush is a social conservative. He will veto embryonic stem cell research on religious grounds, but does not care about deficits and debt. So it seem to me, the republicans have some personality problems.

I believe in moving the country forward and having fiscal responsibility. I believe in science. I believe that science is necessary to create "wealth" for our country. So this is one area the republicans are hung up on. And if we cannot move our country forward with science, then why vote republican. Even various scientists testified before congress that words were deleted in their reports in global warming. (not that I care one way or the other on this particular subject) However, let us recognize what is out there instead of lies and deceit.

Going too far right, is that I have seen the potential of putting religion in government. I have seen the tax cuts and then complete laissez-faire. Just total ignorance of problems that need to get fixed. I have watched 5 years ago the deficits and the costs of the war and hiding it in emergency funding. We have seen how the neocons work with their brainwashing and the debasing of Valerie Plame. We have seen the abuse of 4 amendments to the constitution.

But my forte is in the economics area. The Midwest is a manufacturing area. The pay, the healthcare, the pensions, the tax base for cities and states were all good. And now that is slowly eroding. Some nerd on Wall Street or in Washington will say we are an information society. I do not see it here. I see manufacturing, and those factories are closing down. I see the stores closing down in my town.

It is not the figment of my imagination, that cities and states are struggling. I see no national effort to deal with this. Most service jobs that I know of don't come close what the factories paid. Unless, you know something about computers, etc. The fact remains if there are upheavals then it should be the presidents job to deal with these issues. After all, he is the one that says "free trade" is good. And yet, people lose their jobs. So what gives?

There are many jobs that can be vulnerable. I expect the president to be a CEO and understand the problematic areas. If we can't have a president to act like a CEO then why have a president. McDonalds is experimenting with the drive thru in which you talk to someone in India to order your hamburger. As far that goes, why have insurance adjusters when all you have to do is send a picture to China and they can determine the cost of an accident.

What I am saying is that a lot of jobs are vulnerable to globalization. And our wages have to come down to third world wages. We have the loss of jobs, pressure on wages, lost of healthcare, and pensions. Now that is fact.

I see no growth in this country. In fact we are in a recession with no way out. China will continue with 5% growth or more and that means we will lose our standard of living.

But I don't know where the republican economics of late has come from. How does this work with tax cuts (which is just borrowed money from other countries-and deficits and debt) and then we send our jobs overseas, our money to Iraq, and neglect the infrastructure. What kind of economic growth is this? It really is bizarre?

But you don't have to take my word for it. People voted for Obama. They are the ones that has spoken.

Obviously, something is in disarray with the thinking of the republican party in which we see socialism for the rich. Many economists agree, that there is a bigger disparity with the rich and middle class these days.

Maybe we need an education. Fine. But if you support the above idiotic economic policies at least deal with the ramifications.

I concur that socialism for

Submitted by Mytheos_Holt on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 19:20.

I concur that socialism for the rich is a bad idea, that blind tax cutting is just as often economically stupid as it is smart, and that science is often a useful tool for social advancement, so let's leave that where it is.

And I did explicitly say that manufacturing jobs were the ones being hit, so I suppose I agree with you that they are being "lost" to China. However, the reason for that is that they are paid unsustainable wages for work which is substandard relative to other countries. But your solution appears to me to be something along the lines of moving the United States into the economic special olympics so that we don't have to compete with more efficient industries. And for what? To protect 25% of the economy, when over 60% of it is thriving, and might suffer if subjected to protectionism. I understand that your anecdotal experience might compel you toward that solution, but economically speaking, you do not create wealth or opportunity with protectionism. You can deride the "nerds" in Washington and Wall Street with derisive names all you want, but that won't refute their arguments that free trade is beneficial in the aggregate (Please note: "in the aggregate" does not mean "for every single person").

I don't think I spoke of

Submitted by In between on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 20:03.

I don't think I spoke of protection. (Maybe a little of it is there). But let's face the facts. The Midwest is suffering the most, and it is dependent on manufacturing. We do not have tourism, the likes of which California would have. It is farming and manufacturing.

And on a side note, even if we made a different product. What different product is out there. I mean there is only so much in clothing, housing, and auto products. The rest as you say is a service industry. But that service industry at least in the Midwest was reliant on employed people in factories.

Globalization in our lives I would guess is fairly new. We enjoyed the boom in the years after WW2. We manufactured the goods and now it is time for China and other countries to become middle class. I have no problem with that. But just as well, if we give up something, then we have to search for something new. In Toledo they are making solar cells, but employing 50 people and not 1000 people. It is a big difference from the boom times we had.

I stress that globalization is very real. We have seen it with Japan as they took our textiles, our steel, our electronics, and our autos. It started with cheap labor, then market share, and then you can no longer compete. Maybe we can blame ourselves or our industry, but certainly someone in Washington has to say "This is the way it is, we have a globalized economy and we will lose the jobs, we will help in the form of education, retraining and research and development."

There are a group of American companies that want 1 billion dollars to create a new kind of battery for the car. It should be a goal (remember putting a man on the moon) that we will create a battery that will go 100 miles or more for a charge. This kind of attitude can make a difference. This is what Americans are looking for. Why can't we have the best. Why do we have to see so much growth in China (although they have their problems) of the tallest of buildings, the longest of bridges, and the largest airport. Why do we sit with wars that drain the economy and of stupid failed economic programs.

We used to create greatness. Now everyone tears that down and says all we need is tax cuts and laissez-faire, any you figure it out.

So that is where we stand. The republican party that has done nothing. Obama will try something, right or wrong, it will be interesting to see, but frankly, I am tired of worn out ideas and we just keep sinking with cities and states going broke, deficits and debt, and we have a military in over 100 countries and we cannot even take care of ourselves. Many empires have failed by being stretched thin, and we are doing a good job of ruining our country.

.......

On your free trade argument. No one has come up with an answer for upheaval. Free trade sounds good, but tell it to the person who is 50 years old and lost his job. It was bad enough with competition within the country. But to deal with globalization and cheap third world labor creates an imbalance. I have yet to hear an appropriate answer to this.

The nerds can make their mistakes, but it is the middle class that suffers. The big mistake of the last 8 years is that we had tax cuts, and we still lost jobs, and the housing industry was targeted by all parties to create wealth and we see the bubble today. What no one has recognize is globalization, science, education, research and development. That is the answer to the economy.

China is teaching english to school kids. In Hungary, you do not go to college without knowing english. We have a long way to go to prepare for globalization. We cannot afford to lose. We have an older population, we have deficits and debt. The younger generations will pay the bills. And those bills will be 50% or more in taxation. So we better get it together.

I could take issue with much

Submitted by Mytheos_Holt on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 20:17.

I could take issue with much of this, but the biggest issue I have is your implicit attitude that "tax cuts and laissez faire" are somehow at antipodes with the "why can't we have the best" attitude. Surely you're not unfamiliar with the argument that government very rarely creates anything of value outside the military?

And I think the reason you've yet to hear an "appropriate answer" to that hypothetical is that your definition of an "appropriate answer" is impossible to meet. The only appropriate answer that can be given is that in any economic system, there are casualties. Unless you are advocating for socialism or protection (or both), I fail to see what the point of this emotive appeal to the manufacturing classes might be if you have no alternative solution to the problem. Do you really think we can educate everyone in time to make them competitive with China? Is it impossible that we might not be declining, but rather shifting in the international division of labor?

And on a humorous note, I must tell you that your "upheaval" example reminded me very strongly of Frederic Bastiat's humorous "Candle maker" tale, which tells the story of a candle maker who appeals to the government to blot out the sun because it's causing "unfair competition." Unsustainable (I use this term in a non-environmental sense) industries will always fall, no matter how pleasant it would be if they didn't.

This argument that

Submitted by In between on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 22:10.

This argument that "government very rarely creates anything of value", while on the face of it, I can agree with you. On the other hand I view the presidency as the CEO of our country. CEO's look at all the angles of their business.

For example, if we have "free trade", if we close down factories because of it. It is the responsibility of the president and everyone else to understand the consequences. They throw out ideology, and the little guy suffers for it.

Okay, there are casualties. But what will make up for it. You can't let cities and states sink. And especially, when you the president takes the money for tax cuts and for war. There has to be a responsibility. Of course, the attitude is that "you are on your own." The individual is on his own and the cities and states are on their own. The only difference is that the president takes all the money for his own use and the heck with everyone else. So there is irony here.

We should have faced globalization years ago. But we have not done that. We have not done anything on energy independence in 30 years. I have seen no energy council or energy plan.

Going back you say "government very rarely creates anything of value". But we had greatness. Eisenhower created the interstate system, although for war purposes. The off shoot of that is better commerce. Eisenhower put 1 million Mexicans across the border. Today, for whatever reason we are incapable in doing that. In WW2 we changed our factories and we put out dozens of airplanes in a day. We put a man on the moon.

I am suggesting there has to be some tie in with the government to get back to greatness. I do not see it with tax cuts and laissez-faire. It was 8 years of nothing. The unemployment rate shows it, cities and states are broke, deficits and debt, jobs still going overseas as we lose the middle class, the neglect of the infrastructure. There is nothing good out of the last 8 years. The great experiment of supply side economics and/or trickle down has failed. And especially, if we do not recognize other economic problems.

If you fly a plane, you have to do 10 things at the same time. All we have seen is an ideology and nothing else managed. And that is where the republicans fail.

But here is the economic scenario today:

50 trillion dollars of unfunded social programs

Since 2001 we have gone from a yearly surplus to almost 500 billion dollars in deficit. And 4 trillion dollars of debt added by Bush to a total of 10 trillion dollars in which it was around 5.6 trillion in 2001.

A recession that we cannot get out of.

Higher unemployment.

More people without healthcare.

Tax cuts for about 8 years all used up as we sit in a recession

More in deficits and debt with the bailouts.

More in deficits and debt when Obama introduces his economic package.

We need to replace the B52's, we need ice breakers for the arctic as we have 2 and the Russians have 5, we need a new electrical grid, we are falling behind in high speed internet, we need a new air traffic control system, to fix the water pipe infrastructure will cost 277 billion dollars.

The tax cuts were from borrowed money from other countries. Creating the illusion of a good economy, whereas, we live on an economy of borrowed money.

The fed is printing money, and that will have inflationary effects 3 years from now.

Cities and states broke.

Zero growth as opposed to China with 5% growth and the loss of our standard of living.

Our wages will go down with the pressure of globalization, along with the loss of healthcare and pensions. How can anyone say this is a good scenario?

We are in two wars and we will have to take care of the wounded for the rest of their lives.

We are in a recession with no way out. Tax cuts won't do it. We have had 8 years of it and we are back into a recession. Lower interest rates may not do it, as people fear for jobs. And at the same time I have said before, the fed will create inflation.

Since the private economy has failed and there is no way out. It will be up to the government. And every government in Europe, in Japan, and in China is doing a stimulus. I did not like our first stimulus as people just bought Chinese goods. Little help to the economy.

But again, my ideas mirrors those of Obama. Infrastructural spending, energy independence, mandatory vocational training (this coincides with an economist for the Hudson Institute), embryonic stem cell research, and research and development.

While you degrade government, I have told you before that government can be a partner in new technologies. Like getting a battery to 100 miles or more on a charge. This would be the catalyst for our auto industry.

Another way for government to help is find an alternative fuel for the airlines. And certainly a new air traffic control system that will make flights more direct and make the airlines more profitable. We are running some of the oldest aircraft in the world. So it would be worth it if the government does it's job. The airlines can buy more aircraft, and that is business for Boeing and the parts suppliers and for tourism.

So in this day of globalization. The tax cut and laissez-faire attitude is a failure. It has not made our country and its people prosperous. Except for the rich.

So at this time, before we see the results of Obama, there is no reason to vote Republican.

There's far too much here for

Submitted by Mytheos_Holt on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 22:33.

There's far too much here for me to spend all the time necessary responding to it. Essentially, all I will say is that if you want a President who will be "CEO" of a country, you should have elected Mitt Romney, whose governing philosophy was described this way by the Weekly Standard. No other politician, and certainly no Democrat, looks at it that way. I also hate to break it to you, but Bush was not a laissez faire President, as countless libertarians will happily tell you. But this is pointless because clearly, the reasons you would have to vote are not reasons that the Republican party can appeal to precisely because we value liberty over protecting people from their mistakes and their unsustainable practices. I agree that we should apply this to the rich as well, and it is to our detriment that we didn't. But as Barry Goldwater put it, "my interest is not in passing laws, but repealing them...I was informed that my constituents' interest is liberty." I agree that infrastructure is something useful for the government to do, but that has been part of capitalist theory ever since Adam Smith! I also don't disagree with the idea of mandatory vocational training, depending on what the exceptions to this "mandatory" business are (I would assume Law School and Med School would be considered viable alternatives).

At the end of the day, I can say this: If you want paternalism in the style of Obama, then please, continue voting for the Democrats. But be aware that your vote speaks only for yourself and do not presume to lecture us on what "globalization" and other concepts mean for our society. I assure you, we know what they mean - we simply disagree with you as to their implications. And we know their consequences. But we do not see a Leviathan state which protects people from themselves as the solution. That way is the Road to Serfdom, and speaking for myself, I have no intention to give comfor to those who want to skip down it.

I'll let you have the last

Submitted by In between on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 23:26.

I'll let you have the last word. It is what it is. The numbers speak for themselves.

Not quite accurate

Submitted by Progressive Tra... on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 23:25.

The loss of manufacturing jobs to China has as much to due with currency manipulation as anything else.

Also, there needs to be uniformity (or rather, equity) in labor and environmental enforcement.

Remember when Wal-Mart used to advertise, as a selling point, that all of its goods were made in the USA?

But again, both sides are to blame; from Clinton's push for permanent most favored nation trading status for China, to Bush's running up huge deficits, and failing to provide a regulatory framework for sovereign wealth funds.

Yes, currency manipulation

Submitted by In between on Sat, 01/03/2009 - 00:12.

Yes, currency manipulation was talked about on C-span.

I think, as Clinton signed free trade agreements, he was backed up by mostly those on the right and those on Wall Street.

My argument is that if Bush says "free trade is good." Then do something about the closed factories and the cities and states that will suffer. I don't expect welfare. I expect management and come up with a solution.

In the middle of winter, I don't turn up the heat and leave the door open. I close it and fix the situation. That is all I ask for.

Since we have a president that does not recognize problems, then I guess the republicans are just clueless.

Upheavals yes, but then fix it. And this is not paternalistic. It is called management.

I'd love it if you would

Submitted by Mytheos_Holt on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 17:05.

I'd love it if you would explain how outsourcing doctors can be done, considering that they do need to examine patients. Are there going to be video cameras in the lab?

This is in contrast with helpdesk jobs, which are outsourceable for the simple reason that it doesn't matter who picks up the call as long as they know how to fix the problem.

yup. the military loves it.

Submitted by RisingTide on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 17:09.

no need to waste valuable medical talent getting shot at in a field hospital. Just take a picture, send it out, get a diagnosis from the top talent in the field.

anything can be outsourced if you work at it hard enough (and with fast enough connections.)

Ah, so the military's doing

Submitted by Mytheos_Holt on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 17:17.

Ah, so the military's doing it. I can see how that would be helpful for certain varieties of illness, but not necessarily for those that require more invasive measures. You would still need a physical doctor in those instances. You would still need surgeons for operations, for instance - that is most certainly not outsourceable, and that is more the "service" component of a doctor's job.

GP's are most of the work

Submitted by RisingTide on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 17:23.

and if you can outsource a GP (or dumbify it like Java dumbifies programming), you save money and increase productivity by being able to distribute talent and money more effectively.